They are every bit of a courtesy and we should hold onto a good manner of the past. With our country today it’s being found difficult to find common ground in anything, mainly morals. If we extinguish this too what more can we agree on? It’s a nice subtlety that is not only honoring someone but it’s a time old tradition like baking a cake on a birthday, or carving the Turkey on Thanksgiving. Why do we have to run a muck with the idea of respect and gratitude in the form of a few “honorifics” as you’ve called them. It’s a splendid means of keeping some surity and nicety in society. I vote we stick with it!

And as for the Mr. part. Please feminists no scandalous outrages on how it used to mean Master. We have far been from the time we’ve used the term that way. Elderly gentlemen and elders in general have the right to be shown appreciation no matter what a bitter young feminist thinks.

whoa!

TL;DR, answer is: Mistress

Haha…..interesting!

really? I READ A LOT of books back when i was young, and the governess was always referred to as a mistress, with a time period set in the 19th century. Still, i believe u.

The titles are acceptable in our society. If I am spending money with a company, they better address me as Ms. if they expect to receive my business. It is unacceptable to refer to me by my first name when I am conducting business. May God help the person that does refer to me by my first name when spending money.

p.s. I agree w/Naomi.

Oui, Mistress!

To this day, the way I was brought up, no matter the age, you use the word Mr. and Ms. And or Sir and Mam’. It is the poliete way, and also shows respect. I believe that everyone should use this, now of course I’m not going to look at a 14 year child and say sir and or mam, nor would I say mr. or ms. But when it comes to being at work and or addressing my elders, I will use those. You would want respect given to you, so why not give it back.

i dont get it yo.

I also feel that there definitely is no harm in such courtesies and that it does employ a great deal of nicety in a society however I must admit that, whether intentional or not, the above comment seems some what bigoted in the assumption of such a disposition of ‘young bitter feminists’.
Perhaps one can suggest that nicety within a society can be most effectively administered with more genuine courtesy at a degree that is much more than simply addressing others correctly, for example by being more respectful of various differences etc.. I say this of course without any hopes to cause offence.

I avoid honorifics entirely. Few men are masters of anything and the same goes for women as “governess”. I hardly feel dishonored if someone were to refer to me by my name and not my “title.” Of all the titles, “Mr.” and “Ms.” seem the most banal as they denote nothing but a vague reference to gender. Would we be so keen to stick with them if they served no purpose but to denote race? “We.” for whites; “No.” for Negro; “Ol.” for Oriental; perhaps even “Mo.” for Mulatto? I’m not even keen on keeping titles like Dr. or Ph.D, as they denote an understanding that may in fact not be the case with the person using that title. For example Benjamin Franklin, who never held a doctorate, though certainly had the education, and Dr. Laura Schlesinger who holds a doctorate in physiology and uses the title “Dr.” to lend credence to her marriage counseling though she’s not a psychologist. All titles, in my opinion, are more misleading than illuminating.

I do like having titles like these, but it would be much simpler if we had one for all women, like we do for men. I always find it awkward when I don’t know a woman’s marital status and use the wrong term and am corrected; I don’t like offending people. Can’t we just use Ms. for everyone? Though I do like it when someone (and it’s usually a southerner) calls me Miss (I’m 22 and unmarried), it feels respectful.
I didn’t know that Mr. comes from master, but it makes sense. And I consider myself a feminist, but this doesn’t offend me at all, why should it? It certainly doesn’t mean master anymore.
Very interesting article!

I agree with Naomi with keeping this tradition alive. It’s always nice to hear the archaic and often obsolete histories of evolved words and their acronyms. I do like the American full stop after “Mr.” and “Dr.,” since it reminds us that these words are acronyms. In the case of “Mr.,” the acronym offers a look into the rich past of how it came to be.

“bitter young feminist” is pretty harsh.

I was a young feminist, I’m more middle aged now, and never bitter. I believe that Mr or Mr. has a proper place. My only grudge is when one doesn’t use an honorific for all present. When the man gets “mistered” and the the woman gets called by her first name.

All people in general have the right to be shown appreciation.

I was raised very properly in the South, and I grew up saying “Ma’am, Ms., Sir, and Mr.” I have since moved away and continued with my proper speech only to be told on a daily basis “don’t call me that, I’m not old. My father/ mother was Mr/s Smith, I’m not there yet.”
So, as much as I, personally, appreciate being called ma’am, I have reserved the term for people who are in their 60’s and older, and as such, haven’t found a problem with this yet.
I like proper etiquette. But my generation doesn’t.
We all have names and nicknames now, and maybe the best way to refer to people is by their names.
We lose our respect for people in doing so, but aren’t we already there?

Beautiful article!… I love it. Sigh* I wish these two terms will be corrected after posting this article. (pardon my english geniuses)

“Mr. and Mrs.” today are not nearly the derogatory words they once were. It is a surprise to read this, because people, including myself, had not known the “Master and Mistress” tale. It is in the right mind of the people to follow the norm, regardless of the background of the phrase. The fact of the matter is that we are taught as children that it is proper in etiquette to use the prefixes.

Now if people were educated on the finer details behind the prefixes, and I mean everyone, and were to then purposefully use the phrase for that explicit purpose, then that would be less… politically correct.

More guess work comes from the last name but that wasn’t mentioned in this article.
ex. Hello Mrs. Kate’s Mom.

I’m thinking Mr. for men and Ms. for women. A man doesn’t have any new title for being married to a woman, so neither should a woman when she is married to a man.

I am with Naomi completely, but I also need to pitch in that my teenage son, having heard me read the article out loud has this to say: “I feel like it’s just yet another example of how much easier it is to be a man.”
He made me laugh so I thought I would share it.

I miss this type of etiquette in general social settings. For example, my children’s spouses call me by my first name. If I would request to use “Mr.”, I would be considered an old fashioned prude, which I find to be a shame. I yearn for the time when people stood or sat straight and tall and addressed others with honor and respect. Pop culture I think has sadly killed the tradition.

Speaking as one of Naomi’s “bitter young feminists”, I can actually manage to tolerate ‘Master’ and the authority invested in the term. If ‘Maistresse’ was a term for teacher or governess, then clearly one can argue that ‘Mistress’, like ‘Master’ is historically connected to the recognition of authority.

The problem that has traditionally preoccupied bitter young (and not so young!) feminists is the distinctions between Mrs, Ms and Miss, since these have historically served to make public a woman’s sexual status. Put crudely, a Miss is virginal and available, a Mrs is married and unavailable, and a Ms is either a spinster or a lesibian or both.

Personally I’d be happy to just use Mr or Ms – and I’d accept Miss, too, so long as we reintroduced Master for boys under 18!

Besides, with so many people having gender ambiguous names these days, Mr and Ms still have an important role to play. They can save no end of embarrassment when you’re stuck trying to work out if a new contact is a man or woman!

I’m not aware of any “bitter young feminists”–or any feminists for that matter–who have argued that is sexist to refer to a man by the title “Mr.” because it is derived from “Master.” What a curious statement to make.

With all due respect to Emily Post, I believe it is often considered correct nowadays to refer to women as “Ms.” not because it alleviates guesswork, but because it does not selectively draw attention to a woman’s marital status, which is something quite irrelevant to the respect due a person.

Naomi –

Everybody has the right to be shown appreciation. You mention the elderly as if to imply they deserve more than anybody else. Why? What makes the elderly more deserving?

I don’t particularly like the idea that we have different titles for different people based on our relationship to them. I find the titles to be a pretentious practice. Those who cling to these titles seem to prefer the separation, the distinction; I don’t. I don’t because the honorific implicitly states that you need to treat me (or I need to treat you) with a specific level of respect, and any less would not be satisfactory. For me, that’s a little too, I’m-better-than-you/You’re-better-than-me. This is the modern United States, not 15th century China.

Perhaps it is time to find some sort of replacement titles that don’t derive from such a potentially sordid place? Perhaps it is time to find some sort of replacement titles that don’t imply one person or party is somehow *better* than another person or party?

I have no doubt, that if we put our minds to it, a better system could be created. The problem is that our current system is not so terribly broken that it needs to be replaced. We’ll probably keep doing it over and over for generations, until it becomes a tradition for the sake of tradition. Then, like Naomi’s birthday cake, the argument will be to do it because we’ve always done it.

Tradition alone isn’t reason enough, unless perhaps you’re a bitter old conservative.

I agree completely with Naomi.

There once was a time when it was considered proper and normal for a wife to refer to her husband as “lord” – I think we can be satisfied with Mister, yes?

Another point to mention: Using honourifics is our way of addressing someone with respect. If we do not use them, the implication is that we are not showing respect. If it is a situation in which respect is expected (e.g. when talking to your teacher or perhaps the “big boss” of your company), then the lack of an honourific is considered rude. It isn’t neutral. It can be downright offensive, actually. (Of course, it’s different for friends, as it can be used in an affectionate way… though I never did understand that.)

So what reason could their possibly be to drop them? Unless you want “rude” to become “normal,” I don’t think there is one.

I don’t feel it is necessary to have so many ways to label a woman. We do not do this to men. If anything, we should refer to men as mr. and women as ms. This would demonstrate equality and would prevent a woman from being so defined by her marital status, her abilities would be given more consideration in its stead. I am not bitter about this; I simply believe it would be a worthwhile change.

So you aren’t a bitter young feminist. This is obvious. You are kept, bitter chauvinist.

I guess as long as we’re instructing “bitter young feminists” on which of their opinions are valid and which are not, we may as well address the equally invalid opinions of naive, brainwashed traditionalists. Shame on you, Naomi.

That said, my problem lies not with Mr., but with why, in the 21st Century, so many still insist on making a distinction between a married (Mrs.) and unmarried (Miss) woman. It’s terribly archaic and insulting.

@Naomi: I’m a woman, and I don’t find English honorifics offensive. The only thing I do find offensive is people who are constantly offended! The ultra-feminists are actually way more annoying than chauvinists…

Too formal and obsolete. If you earn a title (such as Dr.), then it makes sense. How is saying Mr. or Mrs. showing courtesy? It’s funny that we even still use those titles when they’ve lost all meaning in modern culture. Let it die.

I was thinking about the origin of “Mrs.” just a few days ago and then when I saw on here that it comes from “Mistress”, I was shocked that “mistress” never occurred to me when I already knew Master becomes Mr.. In my opinion, there should be one “honorific” as they called it for each gender, rather than having 3 different ones for women. It can create some awkward situations when one is corrected for calling someone by the incorrect title. Then again, when is correcting someone’s grammar not a little awkward in adulthood?

Agree with your sentiments in general, but why the nasty comment about feminists? It’s rather dated, and ironic in a letter about ‘niceties’ to read such ill-mannered misrepresentations!

It seems that the younger generation has lost the way of how to address the seniors. I grew up addressing everyone in proper noun. But that seems to be lost. Bring it back, remind the elders that their teachings are not lost.

Those “bitter young feminists” as you call them are the reason you, as a female, are able to speak your mind today. They also are the precursors of your right to vote, to own land, to be employed, to play sports in school, to even go to public school or to college… The list goes on.

Some linguistic renderings still use the word Master, but as a term to describe a male juvenile, the same way we still use Miss today.

“Please feminists no scandalous outrages on how it used to mean Master. We have far been from the time we’ve used the term that way. Elderly gentlemen and elders in general have the right to be shown appreciation no matter what a bitter young feminist thinks.”
Hey!! :p

Must be tiring carrying around all that baggage Naomi.

I vote for Ms. and Mr. when formal titles are needed. If someone requests a certain title I will honor that.

I was always under the impression that Mrs denoted a married woman, Miss indicated an unmarried and Ms was something that denoted neither. It seemed to have come back when women got divorced and wanted neither to be a Miss or a Mrs… My main gripe is that there is no honorific that denotes whether a MAN is married or single or divorced…

As a 13 year old girl, please don’t attack me when I say I understand that this is an honoured tradition but I think there should be one change. Why is it so important to know the marriage status of a woman, but it is only “Mr.” for men? There should be a “Msr.” or “Mrr.” or something for a married man and then “Mr.” can be reserved for single men only. Just putting in my 2 cents.

I say let it be. Forcing usage of language, whether to change or stay the same, never works terribly well. There is no good reason in this day and age for the use of honorifics, except as a mark of respect for another person, regardless of sex, age or position. Remember, we are all equal in this century, or would be if we weren’t holding so desperately to the past…

Good manners never go out of fashion. Being in education and a mother, I teach all the children to address their elders as Mr and Ms. Proper etiquette should not be confused with political aspirations or inclinations, but rather a desire to respect others and oneself.

While I don’t appreciate the condescending tone she take towards feminists I agree with Naomi in that the formality should be kept. I disagree with the reason though. Traditions should no be kept for the sake of tradition, it seems utterly redundant. If a tradition is bad, like discrimination for example, then it should be removed. In this case, referring to someone with a title like Mr. or Ms. is polite and does insist on a mutual respect amongst ourselves. I see no need in removing something useful like that.

Naomi–why would a young feminist be bitter? It’s us older ones who’ve had time to let our bitterness against people like you ripen. I’ve got no problem showing respect for elders, but I do have a problem with people like you who disrespect their fellow humans simply for believing that they and people like them ought to be treated equally to others, and perhaps even for being really tired of being treated as a lesser being. Seems a perfectly natural thing to me, so why do you have a problem with it? .Don’t you realize that the feminists who are the most militant (as in, balking if a man opens a door for them) are only a tiny minority? The fringe, the radicals? Every culture has its radicals. If we judge the entire culture by the radicals among them, that makes us small-minded. And I don’t know about you, but I prefer to have a wide open, expansive mind, than a tiny little narrow one.

“Bitter young feminists”? How about women who want to be shown the same respect men receive? That’s what feminism is about. Why so derogatory about it?

what about ma’am??

To me, the use of Mr. and Mrs. as honorifics (and yes, they are indeed honorifics, the Japanese equivalent to Mr. being ’san’) is little more than a turn of phrase. There are many archaic uses for words that we simply do not use anymore. For instance, in reading classical literature such as Shakespeare, we find (or do not notice, as it may be) a great number of references to long-dead pop culture, and words that are either no longer in existence, or have completely different meanings.

This isn’t something that will immediately change in our culture, although the use of “ma’am” and “sir” has declined in the northeast. There will always be niceties like this, and there will always be people who fail to use them. As a person who still uses the word ‘gay’ to mean happy, I find this rather amusing.

I think Ms. for a young or unmarried woman or if her status is unknown is fine, Mrs. if in fact you know she is married – not a kept woman that’s so stone age.. just my 5 cents worth!

I didn’t laugh. Boring

Well, I suppose it would be respectful. We already use it so why not stick with it? I don’t see how it is too formal.

If that adult finds it too weird for themselves, that adult can always tell the addresser to just call them by another name.

I vote to stick with it but not make it a serious rule. I don’t want people freaking out over a few letters.

P.S. Like Naomi said, people who are cursing at the information of this article (BTW, if you are wondering why I just “lied” it’s a metaphor/ assumption. *sorry for all inconveniences*) just chill out. THE OLD WAYS ARE THE OLD WAYS. WE MUST LOOK FORWARD. DO NOT FREAK OUT OVER SOMETHING OLD.

Totally support the use of these terms in modern society – chivalry is already dead and manners are on the decline, lets not loose the sembelence of society that we currently retain.

I think that it creates a sense of respect for teachers from students. This may be just because it is an “honorific” address, which means that it doesn’t matter if we use “Mr. or Mrs.” but that we should keep that sense of respect for our teachers. I think that any kind of address that meets the same results will work just fine.

Oh, come on!! Holding onto traditions that are founded in patriarchal structures is totally different from holding onto a tradition that’s just “nice” and. Sure we can hold onto celebrating birthdays but do we really need to cling to a title that is derived from the word master? Dismissing feminists as bitter and young is no excuse for the fact that this title comes from a word that puts anyone other than men in a subordinate position.

Some traditions need to be reexamined, and this is one of them. While introducing a new title would sound weird, the title Ms. was strange and uncomfortable just a few decades ago, but today we use it without hesitation. This same silly argument against change is one that could easily be extended to keep slaves in chains and to keep women with no option other than being trapped in their homes. The fact that we’ve done something for years is certainly not reason enough to keep doing it. While I agree that a change would feel uncomfortable at first, I certainly would not be opposed to trying something new. If we are ever going to change the patriarchal structure of society, the words we use have to change because without the words to express how we feel, we cannot express ourselves, and by continuing the use of oppressive words, we perpetuate male domination.

I very often use word which are considered by many others to be archaic. My reply to them is generally one which insults their intelligence. Words & things, including etiquette & deportment, & good grooming do not become archaic, however, I believe the lack of their use should be. In most cases, what I witness is a blatant lack of caring This is what happens when society, not the inclination to maintain the good things in life, permits the ill-bred persons to reign, and this, I’m afraid, includes education. Some of this can be blamed on the school systems which in the USA I hear, is actually considering doing away with handwriting. This is a horrific crime against every word that has been written since the days of the Pharaohs who first put the pen to the paper. Such a crime it is to say to our offspring that writing is obsolete. What will happen when the keypads are no more. Is our world really this near-sighted. Doesn’t anyone see what is happening here. I sure most do not & many who have heard such things no doubt make comments that resemble “Oh that will never happen.” Only an idiot takes life at face value. Surely in the last few years they have learned that their world is nothing more than a house of cards & already it has started to collapse. One last point I wish to make is that it’s each person responsibility to see that the earth is a place fit for humans. Each person has a responsibility to themselves to get an education beyond what is taught in the classroom. With knowledge & good manners, a person can travel far. ON that same token, there have been quite a few who achieved success without it, but such cases are rare. Success is not winning today, but for a lifetime. It’s not what you have, but who you are!

“bitter young feminist” – really? Stereotyping just a little bit?

Blush? i wouldn’t mind being called a Master, as long as i get to have a Mistress ☺

This is the most bitter, inelegant thing I have read today. Admittedly, it’s not even midday, but I doubt it will be beaten. I certainly hope not.

As a feminist, my objection is not so much to the origin of the words as it is to the political implication of distinguishing between gender. There are many individuals who have ambiguous gender or prefer not to identify as either gender. I think it is important to address people with respect, but identifying them based on their gender is not the way to go about doing it, and a gender-neutral term that could be applied to either gender would be much more preferable.

Hilarious! Love this article and the modern day discrepancy from the historic meaning. Although I’ll keep using the terms, I won’t ever stop laughing at the meaning. C’mon, horrifics is used in the most favorable and hilarious ways. Not meant to be feminist in any sort of way. Moving on!

I miss the social boundaries, and protections, that the terms gave women. Today we don’t even use our last names. We are forced to not only give up the boundary setting formality of Mr., Mrs., and Miss, but we are being forced to use our first names with people we don’t even know. Children are calling grownups by their first names. There is no more “Please call me…” I would prefer going back to using these courteous terms of the past. I resent the presumptuousness of today’s lack of courtesy and long for the protection that such formalities allowed women. We should be allowed to decide whether or not we want the appearance of familiarity when being introduced or speaking with people.

Which part is funny?!?!?

Naomi —-

Who’s bitter?? You’re the one complaining about feminists–who are people who seek sex equality through the advocacy of women’s rights–for complaining about gender discrepancy in word usage. It’s pretty hard to argue with that, no? Tell me, then–who is really bitter? As a woman, you owe your right to own property, to vote, and to terminate an unwanted pregnancy to the very feminists you disdain.

It would behove you to think twice about criticizing other women who complain and speak out when a perceived injustice seems to be swept under the rug with the excuse that “it denotes an act of courtesy”.

Besides, the argument that a term should be used just because it is traditional, or just because it has been so in the past, constitutes a logical fallacy called “argumentum ad antiquitatem”. Just because something is traditional or historical does not mean it is good, and just because something always has been a certain way does not mean that it *should* be. If we always did what our ancestors did, we would never change, and we would become extinct. What is right for us depends on our present-day exigencies, not the needs or assumptions of our ancestors. Hence, in normal, everday parlance, honorifics such as “Mr”, “Mrs”, or “Miss” are not necessarily courteous-sounding–they may actually sound stilted and pretentious.

I agree with Naomi! I think we should keep the proper titles, and they do honor people. That’s not a bad thing, whether someone be young or old, male or female. There is no person that does not deserve to be called Mr. or Ms. (Miss or Mrs. if she so desires, like I do since I am proud to be married). This is the same as saying sir and madam in letters and such, it’s just common courtesy. Also, Master is used now for young boys (to distinguish between boys and men, on paper usually). I don’t see it as disrespectful to women to use Mr. for men. I am a woman, and I am not a feminist; I see no reason for women to elevate themselves at the expense of men (just because there are men that do the opposite to put womendown).

Ah !!! Can’t this human society get rid of “hierarchies” ??? I like the last part which says female human’s must be called “Miss” irrespective of their marital status. It almost seems like their “identity” has gone “changed” completely if they marry that is not acceptable even in tiniest form. Why can not “married boys” should be called something else but not “Mr.” ????

Absolutely agree with Naomi…honour and humility should be the highest rank in our attitude towards each other.

I think the only thing that is outdated about our system of addressing people is that there is a distinction between “Ms.” and “Mrs.” Why should there be a way to distinguish between married women and unmarried women, but no such distinction for men? I think that the tradition of having a proper way to address people is a sound and worthwhile way to show respect and formality, but to label women as taken and available is certainly dated. In this day and age, can’t a woman just be Ms. so-and-so as she goes about her daily business without letting everyone she meets know her marital status? I mean, that’s what Facebook is for

Naomi said it better very well.

Naomi said it very well.

Naomi, you’re an idiot.

Wow Naomi- a totally unwarranted slur on feminists there. I am a feminist, and find your little comment there quite ignorant- you must be mixing up self-respecting feminists with sad old man haters. Go get an education.
Ahem- back to the issue at hand. I think Mr. and Ms. are the easiest ones to use, they have evolved quite well for modern usage and they pretty much cover all the stations of life for both men and women. The old meanings for them are no longer relevant.
It’s nice not to have to use Miss or Mrs, as my marital state is usually not relevant.

I think as titles they are fine. They are used in professional situations and as a sign of respect and formality. The problem is that they are being used to determine one’s marital status, which not everyone is comfortable with, but difficult to avoid in the workplace or in documentation. That means, that the personal information you give that is confidential will be unwittingly revealed in the public—if you are a woman. If Mr. can denote both married man or not, then perhaps it would be better to remove the Mrs./Ms. Problem altogether. I wouldn’t consider that radically feminist; just something that makes more sense. There is no reason why you absolutely need to know the marital status just by the title of a person, or else men would have something other than “Mr.” to make it known. Thus, there is a double standard.

On the flip-side, it really is a personal choice for women. Some like the Mrs. and others don’t. In most legal documents you get choice of titles, and I don’t think they can berate you if you choose to be called Ms. but put yourself as a married individual. Assumptions, however, will always be made.

you over explained it…you said to much

basically, you should have came out and been frank with what they really meant..on the fron page you made it sound scandalicious! but really it wasn’t! :{, false advertisement is one thing i will not put up with!

I am so lost! What is supossed to make us blush or laugh? All I’ve learned is that the terms are from master and mistress. I don’t think people should say ”my lady and sir” but they should say ”Mr. and Mrs.” and I also don’t think people should say ”Miss and Ms. just Mrs. for the whole time”.

Very educational I think we should remove the different versions of “Miss” such as Mrs because I tried learning the difference in gradeschool…being 23 years of age now, it still confuses me. Leave it at Mr. and Mrs.

Shame about the derogatory tirade above.

Ms is appropriate for all women, just as Mr is appropriate for all men.
Sometimes my sons have letters arrive which are addressed to them as Master – when they actually prefer Mr too.

(Note to “Naomi” above. Women are rightly afraid of misogynistic behaviour: it certainly still exists and for some is truly frightening and even life-threatening. I hope you never experience it.)

I think it’s great that we still have SOME way of speaking in a respectful manner. However, I think there being three different specific ways to say a woman’s name respectfully is really silly.

If the men only have Mr. then why do the women have different names depending on their “taken or not taken” position. They are to be called Mrs. if they’re married , Miss if they’re too young for marriage, and Ms. for an unmarried woman. Forget if Mr. used to mean Master, that doesn’t mean anything now. Bitter young feminists will find our own respectful titles to be a bit disrespectful. Who wants to be distinguished by their marital status?

I think Mr. is just fine, but really we should just drop Mrs. and Miss and just call all women Ms. Perhaps instead just say Mrs. can be used for all women.

Wow….. too much to read….

Lol….. They wrote Peaple…… Like the green corcle veggies….

I like the Thesaurus most. XD

Speaking from the point of view of a younger generation (late 80s), I thoroughly enjoy the use of formal titles like Ms. and Mr., but the gesture to me has always had the essence of novelty, despite my parents’ insistence on my using formal titles while I was growing up.
I think the question implied by this article is if the use of formal social gestures is an indication of cultural integrity. I don’t think their use is inherently good or bad. I don’t think the informality of my generation’s methods of communication make us (or result from our being) more or less upstanding people than our predecessors. (Trust me? I know that’s a pretty substanital claim…) Perhaps other gestures fill in those gaps to suit the medium through which we communicate and show our statuses. I don’t mind either way.

Also, as per Naomi’s comment, I think it is disrespectful to assume feminists would be upset by the etymology of these titles, and more disrespectful (almost hypocritical in your emotional accusation, IMO) to assume that any feelings of bitterness they might feel toward a richly patriarchal tradition can’t be justified by intelligent observations and keen insight. You may not be a feminist because you have not observed the world the same way they have. People have every right to feel the way they feel about anything, no matter your appraisal of the quality of their observations. We all perceive the world differently and also handle the information we extract from it in different ways.

Wow, a bit bitter towards “young feminist”? Is it really respect or a way to keep snobs, snobs. What is wrong with directly addressing a person by their name? Our society is ever evolving to eliminate the classes and hold each person independant of their status, race, gender or any other type of stereo type, including a Miss, Mrs., mistress or master. Labels are what hold us back from evolving to be a good mannered society, and respecting individuals for who they are and not for who they are labeled to be. And, as for birthday cakes and turkeys, who is to say they are old traditions or new ones? How long have they really been around compared to the human race and all other traditions. They are actually considerably newer ones in the grand scheme of things being just a few decades old versus thousands. So why can’t even newer ones be started? What is wrong with a tofurkey? And who are you to say what my family traditions are or should be?

Since we are on the definition website you may want to look up the term “feminist” and “bigot”. Not what you thought they meant? Which one are you?

I say elders deserve our appreciation for their knowledge and life experience and not to be labeled with anything but respect and if that means calling them by Mr or Mrs, that is the times they come from and should be upheld, but our generation does not expect that and I think future generations may find it disrespectful. So like the 14th century terms may change and fall out of favor, and like the 17th century we may find a different way to show respect.

THIS WAS A GREAT READ! LOL I AGREE WITH NAOMI. GOOD TO KNOW WHERE THINGS ORIGINATED FROM. :]

I fully agree with Naomi. I realize that described English is far different than prescribed English, but I also am of the belief that without a full knowledge of the rules one cannot properly branch out. I hope Emily Post would agree with me when I say there is a time and a place for everything including proper use of honorifics. I have often thought it would be nice to be addressed with the proper respect that comes with a title and in turn address someone with the same respect. So, in closing, remember to write thank you letters within the appropriate time and address those around you with the proper accord they deserve.

I enjoyed reading the etymology of these words/abbreviations. Although I am married, I prefer Ms. as it just seems to cover all grounds and not categorize me. Thanks again for this article.

I believe in retaining these honorifics, if anything for the benefit of politeness, but finding an epicine (gender-neurtral) replacement.

Many transgender persons, myself included, find that neither Mr. and Ms. properly convey our gender identity or expression. And it only adds to the confusion and awkwardness of many social situations, particularly when the speaking party selects the wrong title. The same holds true for the salutations, ma’am and sir, as archaic as they might seem.

As gender rights are becoming a far more significant aspect of modern day American society, perhaps we need to re-approach the linguistic shortcomings of “formal address” entirely.

–Randall

Well, for a start “Naomi”, what makes a feminist bitter?!? And some old geiser shouldnt automatically have respect! Also, if you look into it, we arent past men thinking they have ownership yet, not nearly. And by the way, you misused the word ’scandalous’.

I absolutely agree that we should not only hold to but embrace these honorifics, and teach them to our children. This is a much needed symbol of respect that is sorely lacking in the American public today.

Mr. and Mrs Chandni Manish

I love you Chandni…. U r my sweetesh, sour maistresse

I always address older people (I’m 17) by Mr. or Ms. It’s just how I was raised. Also, it’s polite. I believe it’s so rude when I see younger kids calling older people of authority by their first name. It’s appalling, in fact. That’s just disrespectful to me.

Calling my male teachers’ names will now forever feel awkward…..
Just wait till the feminists find out….. *hides*

That didn’t make me blush… or laugh… So, i don’t get it.

wow this topic is well spoken out really gives me a whole entirely different prospective of things i mean truly in some ways helps me out in my way of me using manners/etiquette thanks so much for it!!!!

I agree with Naomi; traditional platitudes of courtesy denote respect and add character to society. I say titles like Mr. and Ms. are “the perfect bit of courtesy.”

I think the title is merely a buffer used when addressing people. For example, This is Mr Victor, he is the head of Physics at the CERN Institute. Now imagine how strange it would seem if we had omitted ‘Mr’ from the introduction, everyone would assume that his first name was Victor.

In addition to this, titles have morphed into simple marital status symbols as you have already stated. Mr for a married man, Mrs for a married woman, Master for a young bachelor, and Miss for an unmarried lady. As for ‘Honorifics’, i no longer see these titles as such. They have been replaced by ’sir’ and ‘madam’. These are the vernacular titles used to address men and women today.

I just want to point out that “Ms” was a term coined in the 1970s, not the 17th Century. It was coined during the era of female emancipation, Women’s Lib etc. to avoid discrimination by marital status.

We’ve become a casual society. But it is still nice to be called by such proper names such as Mister and all that. But of course, most kids now learn that you should call any woman that you don’t know if married or not Miss and if you know if they are married to call them Missus. I extremely dislike that people get so picky over these things. It’s quite ridiculous when you think about it. These words may get phased out more and more as the human existance continues but it is proper to call your elders/superiors by a formal name. I’ve been called Miss a few times and it is refreshing to hear that I’m being addressed as such. It gives a since of pride and power and shows that there is still kindness and hospitality in this world of ours.

PS: Sorry for any spelling mistakes of grammer mistakes, spelling isn’t my strong point, neither is grammer and my eyes tend to mix letters up on occasion.

I use Ms. very often. If I’m not sure if a woman is married, I rather use “Ms.”
I also thikn that we should hold onto good manners and using Mr. Mrs. or Ms. is a way to respect a person.

“If the abbreviation includes both the first and last letter of the abbreviated word, as in ‘mister’ and ‘doctor’, a full stop is not used.” That is news to me and I have lived in England since the day that I was born here. I thought that the omission was a recent occurrence, similar to the omission of the stops in acronyms. I still write Mr. and Dr. and Fr. and Mrs.
I was aware of the long form of Mr. and Mrs. (that being master and mistress) but not, necessarily, of the meaning. It was interesting to read that Ms. has been around since the early 1600s, because my experience of that is fairly new, too.
If we didn’t use these forms of address, which have been with us for some years, how would we address each other?
Naomi, young boys are still often called “master” but the sense is not, as far as I am aware, of somebody to whom one should be subservient to. Power is not, necessarily, in the word but in how it is used.
As far as I am aware, members of the Royal College Of Surgeons are not addressed as Dr. but as Mr. I wonder if there is some remnant of the true meaning of the word at work, here.

Thank you, author. I had no idea “Ms.” had a lineage traceable that far back. Thought it was a relative upstart.

Naomi, it’s plain offensive that you seem to think “bitter” and “feminist” automatically go hand in hand. My only argument as a feminist is that a woman should be shown just as much respect as a man. Do I think Mr. is offensive? No. Like you said, it doesn’t mean “master” any more. But if anyone (feminist or not) argues that we should modernize things and find better ways to show respect, than great! But obviously, it shouldn’t take respect away from men either, because that’s sexist in itself, and that’s just as wrong.

I have grown up in a generation that is almost completely without any moral standing, has little concept of authority, and lacks respect for others, particularly those who refuse to conform to their liberal ideas; a fact which, since I was raised in the tried and proven old-fashioned way, saddens and dismays me.

Using the titles, I think, shows that perhaps we still have some dignity, something that is dreadfully difficult to find. Giving the honor and respect that they hold is not only a matter of giving what is due, an action which is certainly proper, but is also a matter of pride, nobility, and being an upstanding person. To cease using such titles as “Mr.” and “Mrs.” would be to remove what little sense of these things we retain, though I fear they too are being lost.

“Ms” all the way for me. I consider it vastly discourteous to be addressed any other way. If other women insist on being defined by their marital status, that’s fine by me too, mind. I can’t imagine addressing my mum as anything other than Mrs, but she has no problem with the title, and thinks Ms is just for gobshite feminists like me.

Yo yo i think for females WOMAN or WO-Man is appropriate.. whilse for men G or Brother is good too!

Funnily enough, this article neither made me blush nor laugh out loud.

The article states that “By the early 17th century, Mr., Mrs. Ms. and Miss became part of English vernacular,” but the definition for Ms. says that it came into use in the 1950s (which is closer to what I would have guessed).

Hey now! This was a nice topic about word history. I find it humorous that in a post all about respect and honorifics the commenter then manages to condemn a wide swath of the population. I happen to be a young feminist and if I am bitter about anything, ma’am, it is that members of my own sex cannot manage to show me any respect or benefit of the doubt. I don’t have a single problem with Mr., Mrs., Ms., or Miss. Nor do most of my younger generation. The purpose of SOME feminists pointing out linguistic throwbacks like this is to show how patriarchy – and, yes, misogyny which is OBVIOUSLY not limited to men – was so pervasive that it made itself known in our language. No one thinks that calling a man Mr. in this day and age makes him think he is one’s master. Maybe if women weren’t so quick to undercut other women, the feminists who happen to be bitter wouldn’t be so. I’m most especially referring to women who have been alive longer. I do respect my elders, but often I look to the older women around me for wisdom and only find anger, resentment, and bile. Talk about, bitter. Try searching dictionary.com for an old idiom about the pot calling the kettle black.

As for the post – very informative and amusing. Thank you dictionary.com. My “bitter young feminist” friends and I will cackle about it while we stir our cauldron and stroke our warts and plot the downfall of everyone with a Y chromosome.

How about the term Master being used to signify an unmarried or young boy…I think it is a bit old fashioned, more so than using the term Miss for girls.
Also a bit confusing in times when at school a teacher was referred to as a “master” too…. English master, science master etc. (Headmaster and Headmistress seem to still be in use though)
No mention of Master?
I think Naomi is a bit stuck in the past, these kind of stories show us that history and language is not static, it evolves and it always will. If you choose to dig your heels in and obsess over the past that is fine but realise that even back then language was evolving and changing it isn’t some recent occurrence you can blame on a young society without morals.

I LOVE YOU. ^

Haha, exactly my thoughts! Couldn’t have put it better myself.

Naomi, I know about a hundred women that call themselves feminists and not a single one takes issue with use of the honorific “Mr.” You seem to have a pretty outdated view of what mainstream feminism concerns itself with.

I was raised in the South, and I use the honorifics Mister or Missus, Sir or Ma’am, whenever addressing anyone, regardless of the addressee’s age or perceived social stature. I do so because I fear that if I do not, somehow my mother will know and I will receive a thorough tongue lashing when next I see her. The fact that I will soon be aged 50 (and she, 75) does not diminish this fear in the slightest.

None of this was news except for what I hope was an honest mistake where you said “Ms.” was part of the vernacular in the 17th century. That abortion is a late 20th century invention.

And Ms. is no more a fresh word derived from something other than “Mistress” than Miss or Mrs. It’s just an ugly compromise. Once upon a time, actresses were always referred to, when using an honorific, as “Miss.” I guess the custom was to use that when one wasn’t sure or when one was using a professional name. Either way, it was a perfectly fine custom that of course got screwed up in the 70s like so much else. Ms. is ugly and unpronounceable unless you’re a southerner and then it means “Mrs.” and is pronounced “Miz.” There was nothing wrong with using “Miss” for everyone – at least it can be pronounced – but some people probably couldn’t stand the idea of having others think they had never been able to catch a man. And so the third ugliest word in the English language was born.

Naomi, though you ask for courtesy and good manners, your response shows, firstly, a misunderstanding of feminism and feminists, and secondly, rudeness towards those that think differently to yourself. Please don’t assume feminists are bitter or are prone to scandalous outrages.

Sounds like you are projecting some insecurities onto feminists. Elders don’t have a right to a damn thing unless they earn it. I’ve run into far too many grandpappys who used to wear cone shaped hoods to fall for that trick again.

I use the term Mr. (Mister) ________ when addressing my close male friends as a sign of endearment and respect.

Proper terms that are used today is, “Hey”, which applies to everybody. For example, “Hey (exclude name), what’s up?” All kidding aside, people just use names, nicknames, or in a more personal matter or in business, use mr., mrs., or ms.

I agree whole-heartedly with Naomi

I think we should drop the term. You don’t need to be a feminist to realize that Americas have made plenty of mistakes in the past, and refering to a husband as the “master” of a woman is one of them. It doesn’t mean master anymore, but the fact that it derives from the word is enought to change it. Think back to when Americans had slaves and referring to their “owners” as masters. The word has a negative connotation and it needs to be dropped.

I agree with Ms. Naomi. Our nation’s morals are going down the toilet. Kids in the school have very little respect for authority. “Mr.”, “Mrs. or Ms” are hardly used anymore in the schools. Instead we find nicknames given to our professors. Now, this is only a small thing in comparison to what a lack of morality produces. We have in our nation a lack of morality, respect, good traditions, etc. because there are no absolutes anymore. Since the absolutes produced by the humanists (Humanist Manifesto Article EIGHTH: Religious Humanism considers the complete realization of human personality to be the end of man’s life and seeks its development and fulfillment in the here and now. This is the explanation of the humanist’s social passion.) are bankrupt, should we be looking somewhere else or bring back the absolutes and beliefs that the founding Father of this nations believed in?

I also completely agree with the former remark on not distinguishing Mrs. and Ms. Who needs to know if you have a significant other? Someone who wants to know you perhaps? In the biblical sense.

I agree with Naomi, or as we in the South address might say Miss Naomi by someone younger than she. I’m old enough now that many of my younger women friends call me Miss Barbara out of respect (even though I am married). It is refreshing to know and to meet other people that have manners. I taught my children to have respect and good manners. Many times I didn’t think they had them, but then they would surprise me using them at the right times, Thank God. I just hope that good manners isn’t becoming a dying art. It would become a sad world if that happened.

I am a woman and a feminist that has served proudly and retired from the military. However, give people a break. Ma’am (this is the correct spelling) is respectful, Ms, Mr., Mrs., are all meant as a sign of respect. Those little twits that don’t like titles because they make them “feel old” need to get a grip. Someone showing you respect or not is damned either way. There are far more things to worry about in this world.

Interesting interesting. I just find it funny how there is an argument over this, does that count for making me laugh?

I mean, to Naomi,

I LOVE YOU. LOLOL Ooops, (Perhaps my computer was a bit late? :S)

Well that answers something for me, thanks! Had a debate with a girl in a shop when I gave my title as Ms- she looked at me with surprise and said “you’re divorced?” (Apparently look too young to be divorced!). But then I looked at HER with surprise and said “what?!”. Apparently it’s quite common that people think Ms means “once was a Mrs but now divorced”, as another shop girl echoed her opinion. Never heard that theory before but I wasn’t going to assume I was right. Glad to know I’m not a Miss now (it conjures up images of ringleted 12 year olds with white satin sashes).

Naomi, though you ask for respect and good manners, your response show firstly, a lack of understanding about feminism and feminists, and secondly, rudeness towards others who do not think like you. Please do not assume that feminists are bitter and prone to scandalous outbreaks. Questioning time-honoured practices is not being bitter.

As an Australian, we probably use honorifics less than in other cultures. Though, just because I call my Professors or Doctor by their first name does not mean I do not respect them! Those titles reflect the hierarchical social system as it was then, but seeing as we want to do away with all of that it makes sense to get rid of those status-preserving titles too, yes?

I want to be called Maegester David Peterson from now on.

Mr., Mrs. and Mr. implies courtesy and respect. Also an identification for man and a woman.
We have to hold on….

@ Ben
I’ve always questioned oppressive and useless ‘customs’ but I have absolutely no problem with tradition itself; it is a direct link to our past and therefore essential. Tradition only becomes a problem when its practice is harmful and misleading, and with Mr and Ms I think we can safely say its purpose is not harming anyone and its intent is quite transparent…it is an address. Simple.

I am suspicious of anti-tradition sentiment. I’m human, my ancestors were human and so too there’s, so why would I want to disassociate myself from my kinsmen/women whose practices and methodology have been instrumental in our intellectual/moral and physical evolution? No matter how flawed or brilliant these theories and actions, they are a part of our ‘human’ makeup and biography. What do we gain by shirking such responsibilities and facts? Denial.

I would then ask you why should you have a problem with addressing your elders as Mr or Ms? Have they not lived a LIFETIME – worked, had children, raised families, suffered, loved, failed, succeeded, done wrong, done good and…and…lived to share the tale, but who are they to share it with? It is all too telling of a post modern Western society that locks away it’s elder’s – and its historical significance – in nursing homes and which fails to celebrate them nor learn from their longevity and wisdom. Sad really. I am constantly reminded by cultural etiquette from around the world that “respect” is actually a honourable, inclusive and progressive transaction.

I get a kick out of watching and listening to elders tell stories because they hold so much gravity and knowledge – not always admirable or accurate – but it has merit by virtue of the fact that they have done their time on this planet and served it, as you will have ‘Sir’ by the time you get to a ripe old age.

Let’s no diss something because it doesn’t fit the constraints of the current paradigm. Just because it’s new doesn’t mean it’s better.

in an effort to further enlighten our colonial cousins, when i was growing up during the 60’s it was also common practice in the uk to differentiate a male child by using the term master as opposed to mister for an adult male in the same household, particularly when addressing letters for example.

I am always somewhat amused when reading comments written the other side of the big pond, as its interesting to see how english has been distorted/evolved into different meanings and values and the true meanings sometimes hidden, particulary when common words here are perhaps unknown in the states.

There’s a simpler explanation, however not a pleasant one by today’s standards: today Mrs. comes from Mr’s (respecting the punctuation rules) as in Mr’s property…

As far as I know (and this is still the practice in UK). Officially, a married woman will still be called “Miss” if she is still using her maiden name. For example Benazir Bhutto was always referred to “Miss Bhutto” by the British paper “the Economist”. Also in court papers, a married woman who kept her birth name is referred to as “Miss …”

Also, “Master” refers to a boy, and “Mister” to a grown-up man.

I often hear “Sir” and “Madam” used in debates and arguments especially on TV or radio, as if to distance the speaker from the addressee. It’s a faux formality that lets everybody know this is not a chummy exchange.

naomi, if you want elderly people to be respected, then you ought to respect feminists, too! referring to them as ‘bitter’ is disrespectful and shows your utter lack of understanding of feminists’ advocacy. if you’re a woman, naomi, you can thank feminists for having fought for a number of rights that you’re enjoying now as a woman.

A student told me he thought “Mrs” came from the possessive “Mr’s ”

Carol -

If you have such a difficult time pronouncing Ms, may I suggest that you find a competent speech therapist to help you with that. I’m a Southerner and no, Ms does not mean Mrs.

And as for your comment: “but some people probably couldn’t stand the idea of having others think they had never been able to catch a man.”

THAT kind of thinking is what needs to be left in the past. You and Naomi sound like the Women’s Auxiliary to the He Man Woman Haters Club.

Besides, one does not catch a man, unless they are falling. One catches fish.

Hi, Bitter Young Feminist here ~_^

I use Mr. and Ms. for my friends’ parents, unless they ask me to address them by their first name, and for other people who I don’t know well. I have never used Miss or Master, as small children generally introduce themselves using only their first name.

My workplace has the “tradition” of calling everyone by their first names, which I don’t think diminishes the respect for others at all.

When serving clients, however, I address everyone as “Sir/Ma’am” (i.e. “Excuse me, Ma’am, is this your bag?”) or “lady/gentleman” (i.e. “Hi Bob, the gentleman in the corner wishes to speak to you regarding his locker”). I would love a gender-neutral alternative though – it can be difficult to determine which honorific to use sometimes, and I certainly don’t want to cause offense.

And that is why I use “Sir” and “Madam/Ma’am.” With these, everyone is royalty/nobility. ; )

I believe that we should keep them. I like to be called Miss and when I am married I would like to be referred to as Mrs. I disagree with the above comments, as I am a teacher and I believe that by using titles there is a distinction made between who is in authority and thus respect is expected and offen achieved.

“but some people probably couldn’t stand the idea of having others think they had never been able to catch a man.”

Er, really Carol?!? That’s the impetus for an honorific that is neutral of marital status?

As a newly engaged young woman (yay!) I’ll be sticking with Ms, as I have for some years already, for most of the reasons outlined above.

However, what I really want to mention is how where I grew up in the north of England a person who was a family friend would be known by the children as ‘Aunty’ or ‘Uncle’ so-and-so. So I had Aunty Helen across the road, Aunty Chris and Uncle Dave lived near my grandparents etc etc. It would have seemed weirdly formal calling them Mrs or Mr but there was no way you’d call them just by their first name. This is a nice honorific that I use with my friend’s children and plan to continue with my children.

I think this use is common too in African-Caribbean families in the UK and in Spain ‘Aunty’ and ‘Uncle’ seem a general term for anyone a bit older than you. I also really like that in Mallorca (a Spanish island in the mediterranean) they use ‘King’ and ‘Queen’ as a fairly informal, but respectful, way of addressing strangers.

And that’s my tuppence worth.

I am Agree with naomi

The titles Mr and Miss/Ms/Mrs should remain prominent, especially because we are going further and further away from the times that those kinds of manners were enforced. The fact that Mr is short for Master doesn’t really matter, females were created through the men, not with the men. In other words, Christianity teaches that men are rightfully the holders of the household (they don’t have the right to treat their wives like slaves) and should, if possible, be the providers for their family.
Back to the manners. As some people are mistaken these titles do not reveal your sexual status, only your marital status. You could be infertile and still be married, or you could be sexually active before marriage (which I do not approve of, but who cares what I think).
Also, the titles show your respect for someone. You only really call those who are oldern and wiser or superoir to you by those titles; so why not let someone know that you consider them to be wiser or more superior to you (by superior I mean higher in authority)?

I’ll shut up now.

- A female

Hi, nice information. I realise that sometimes history of something is a ‘wierd’ thing

I couldn’t agree with you more, Naomi. And you hit the nail on the head with the “bitter young feminist” comment.

Jessica Taggert said:

“The problem that has traditionally preoccupied bitter young (and not so young!) feminists is the distinctions between Mrs, Ms and Miss, since these have historically served to make public a woman’s sexual status. Put crudely, a Miss is virginal and available, a Mrs is married and unavailable, and a Ms is either a spinster or a lesibian or both.”

What a curious statement. I wonder how many people believe that rot. I’m in my fifties and have never heard it before. I think that smacks of spending too much time in women’s studies classes and less on realizing and accepting one’s own worth, regardless of how some group or other labels you. Who cares what they think? Work on valuing who you are, girls and engage in activities that build your acceptance of yourself as opposed to those that make you feel worthless.

You will always find people in the world who get offended about something. Getting all worked up about this one is nothing more than a waste of time.

i thought u said this was goin to be funny. it was so so dry. sorry im just angry cause i have study to do and its so hard.

It perplexes me that so many people above appear to take offence to Naomi’s reference to “bitter young feminists”. What in particular has caused offence? Is it that they consider themselves bitter, young or feminists? I believe that Naomi was not refering to feminists, nor those feminists that are young. Only “bitter young feminists”. If you feel that you qualify in all three descriptions, it is to you she was refering to and to no one else.

And to those people who patronisingly objected to Naomi’s right to free speech, get off your high horse!!

I AM A MS AND PROUD
totally

I think it’s important to honour our elders, and these honorifics are a very democratic way of doing that. My wife particularly likes bein referred to as Ms. Minnie.

i don’t agree with elena

I think a nice & respectful substitute for “Miss / Ms.” would be Madam or Mdm. which has been commonly used in more formal situation such as a public speech or in diplomatic conversation addressing a notable female person.

I grew up with Mr. being used for any man – regardless of social standing, Mrs. is for married women and Ms. or Miss for women who are unmarried (regardless of age) – all are used in my formal settings such as for teachers, men or women you do not know personally, or in professional settings (such as at work), also used in more formal settings such as legal proceedings etc (Mr. so and so vs the state, etc) Alternatively, you could also use “Mam” or “Sir”, for example, you would say “Excuse me Sir” to a man you do not know personally and were trying to get the attention of.

I am only 25, but I agree with keeping a bit of formality alive, especially amongst young children. Using these words is a sign of respect, and also shows you have some education and manners.

Im 27, and hav 2 children, in the school yard i get “hay, Evan’s/Caitlin’s mum, can i…….”
they are of course only 1st schoolers so this i dont mind. i get introduced by my husband as his wife, then i get called ‘Mrs Johnson’ till i say its ok to call me by my first name. although i like being married an the respect at work or functions being called ‘Mr & Mrs’ i am only 27 and times do move on, its nice to be used when its ment to be, an I believe it should be used. Though its not as intense as it was in the 14th century

After reading an article , I always love to read the comments as I find these more interesting than say the article itself, but some of these article are making much ado about nothing. To me the article was fun to read and light humour , (yes,humour I was trained in the Queen’s english).

The article cites Old English and Middle English, but does not continue back to French and Latin. I would think the OE “maegester” comes straight from Latin “magister.” (And that “maitresse” came through France.)

Interesting to note that “magister” in Ancient Rome could mean “master” or “teacher” (as in “schoolmaster”), and that often the teacher was a Greek slave. Hard for a modern American to grasp the concept of a master who is a slave!

at my school we always say ms. even if we know that the teacher is married. i guess is just easier.

Pretty sure every feminist alive is bitter. Why else would they make such a big deal out of nothing?

I read the verbose comment left by Naomi on a site discussing words. I could not get past the phrase “run a muck…” I have to ask Naomi, why just one muck? LOL!!

What a marvellous debate!
Surely it is matter less what ‘title’ we hold in these modern times; why do we need to be labelled with a title anyway? What purpose does it provide? …it helps others identify the person that we are… or do you not want to be identified as a person and command some respect? I certainly don’t mind being identified, but more importantly I want to be respected, because I respect those around me …and I was always taught that you have to give respect to earn respect!

Here’s a suggestion for the future for those that want to modernise:
M for a male and F for a female for example (regardless of which gender you were born and which gender you prefer to be):

M. John Smith
F. Jane Doe

Personally I’d be happy to ‘use’ any title that helps me recognise my fellow human beings as many of our names have become ‘neutral’.
I believe that it’s far more important that we show good manners and respect one another than worry about a title.

BTW: for the record I retained my ‘title ‘ of Mrs after I divorced because I felt it offered my children some respect to be known that they were born within wedlock, unlike so many of the young these days …again it’s a ‘respect’ thing!

“Note however, that “Miss” also derives from “mistress.””

So does “Ms,” since it is derived from Mrs and Miss (in order to be consistent with Mr).

Funny thing,

When referring to a teacher, my children and other classmates have called
the teacher “Miss”. All the way up to and through highschool. Not a full
name, just “Miss”. This is a public not a private school system.

Interesting how people like to disfigure history. You mean master derives from mægester, which is not derived from the latin word magister. So, I guess the Romans found the word mægester very beautiful and mimicked it, deriving the word magister.

I prefer to be refered to as Peter M Buchanan Esq.

When I was younger, we always referred to people with the appropriate titles. Sir or Ma’am worked just fine. Even growing up, I continued the practice. In the work place, I refer to my superiors as Sir or Ma’am, unless they insist I don’t. I enjoy being referred to as Ma’am or Mrs, and I, BTW was born as recently as 1985. I say more people need to continue this honorific.

In Sweden we have long since gotten rid of our versions of Mr and Mrs; “herr” and “fru”. If anyone would use those words in every day Swedish today, it would be too old fashioned to be considered conservative – it would simply sound weird.

This will happen eventually in the Anglo-Saxon world as well, you’re just some 50 years behind us. Good manners never will be, nor ever has been, about silly titles.

Respect is beyond linguistics. Titles are obsolete and unnecessary. I see many people believe that our society is morally bankrupt. I pose this question… when has it not been? Human history reads like a graphic novel. We might have been calling ourselves Mr, and Mrs. in the 50’s… but what was happening behind closed doors? I’ll tell you… racism, sexism, and fear of anything different. Verbiage will not change this… attitude will.

Could someone please explain to me the difference between Miss and Ms? Ms Sounds like the same word abbreviated yet people seem to use them as different things…

I think that some form of honorific needs to be used, though I couldn’t care if it’s Mr. or Mrs. or Ms. or something different entirely. I think they show respect. I’m in middle school and I think it’s awkward to call an adult by their first name–it shows no respect. Also, titles like Dr. are to acknowledge a person’s achievements and therefore should also be used.

I got it, but still didn’t laugh

how about in spanish Sernor, Senora and Senorita?where does that come from?

look, basically, i’m going to lay it straight and if you disagree with me, then your an idiot and don’t understand what i’m saying, so read it again and again until you agree.
There is no use for the prefix of mr, mrs, ms etc.social trends OF the past died WITH the past. people have names for the purpose of identification. there is literally an unlimited number of possibilities. no prefix is necessary. respect is for those who earn it, and people who earn respect ought to be called by their given name.

There being no difference between the term for Men is not true. Young men are formally reffered to as Master in correspondence (traditionally up to the age of 13) and Mr (from 18 or upon leaving school). This is the way it is in the United Kingdom anyway.

Society changes. Get over it. The only thing keeping the idea of inequality between men and women alive is when it is brought up by you women (not all, most of you have it figured out). Just as the article points out, things go away as society moves forward. You women spent a huge portion of your life fighting for equality and then are not only bitter toward men, but attack the younger generation of women for not going through it. That is bitter, it’s hypocritical, and it’s unintelligent. Everybody appreciates what you did for women, just like we appreciate our Fathers and Grandfathers who spent their lives fighting for us. The sooner the animosity stops, the sooner you start enjoying the current society the rest of us live in.

also, lets consider this situation.
a man and a woman, both identical in every aspect (eat same food, walk same distance to work, both right handed, both 1.75 m tall etc) only difference being that one is female and one is male.
both are required to make a judgement on the same incident of which neither is affected by the outcome.
the woman and the man both make different calls.
if you disagree, then you argue then that men and women are no different. therefore social matters that arrise between men and women as a result of different sex should be disregarded – making you wrong.
if you argue correct, then you argue that one gender is by nature more superior to the other. therefore you can conclude that this moral discussion is totally valid, yet has no direction as neither point can be argued with proper justification. therefore, accept that your all idiots, and cease to comment thankyou.

I’m middle-aged and have never used honorifics like Sir, Ma’am, Mr., Mrs., Ms., Dr., etc. First name places everyone on an equal basis, which is what everyone should understand about how we should be treated in todays society.

I also agree with Naomi.
When I was in middle school the teachers insisted that the student call them by their first name. It is very difficult to respect and learn from someone who wants you to see them as your equal.
But not just teachers we should respect everyone, especially our elders.

What’s this? Another author creating artificial controversies?

“Our society is ever evolving to eliminate the classes and hold each person independant of their status, race, gender or any other type of stereo type, including a Miss, Mrs., mistress or master. Labels are what hold us back from evolving to be a good mannered society, and respecting individuals for who they are and not for who they are labeled to be.”

I firmly disagree Stephanie. The titles “Mr” and “Mrs”, notwithstanding the gender-classification, are no more “labels” than our reliance on the boundless rudimentary sexual stereotypes which are quite predominant in this society — and ironically, mostly upheld by American youth (visit YouTube for a good lesson in the vernacular we now rely on to address our peers, e.g. “faggot”, “gay”, “queer”, “whore”, “tranny”, etc.)

In fact, nowadays “gay slurs” seem to be more widespread than our use of these seemingly outdated formalities. To me, that is far more reprehensible than concerning ourselves with the existence of trite mannerisms like “Mr” and “Mrs”.

Personally, if this is a testament to our future as a “moral culture”, then I’d much prefer a linguistic renascence.

–Randall

Speaking as someone from the south-when I was younger and used titles, some people took it as a sign of disrespect (saying they wern’t that old). Now, they all seem to appreciate the respect it shows. Also, I tend to call all ladies Miz-southern for mrs. or miss.

Mr. Mrs. Miss, etc.; all proper etiquette. It’s polite to address someone in a professional manner such as Mr. Smith, especially in the business aspect.

I like being called Mrs, and I hate being called Ms. And if its not obvious from my wedding band you can always ask. Its polite to ask what someone prefers to be called anyway, and there really are a lot of different options. I loved being called Madam (French) when living abroad – it seemed very respectful, and I loved being called Mother-of-(my son) (by Arabic speakers) too. Just ask!

There is an important point missing in the original post and subsequent discussions. When a woman is addressed as Mrs. X, it is referring not only that she is married but also that she is using her husband’s name. Therefore, I would call her Mrs. X as long as she is using the name of a certain Mr. X. I would call a woman Ms. Y if she uses her maiden name Y, regardless of her marital status. Thus the choice is determined by what name the woman uses. Undoubtedly feminism has done some wonderful things in opening our mind . But as long as women use their husband’s name, the title Mrs. would be necessary in a formal/polite setting.

Haha, Elana! That’s great yet another example where one can assume more about the “general motives” of the person/group making the distinction versus the one who must hold the title of ‘distinguishment’ LOL
Well put

@ V’le
Here here !

I find it offensive when we call someone who is unworthy of honor Mr. Like prisoners in courts of justice… On the other hand, it may help them cultivate self-respect is we show respect towards them. So… Yes. I’m all for Mr. and Mrs. for everyone.

Regardless of how the word Mister evolved certain formalities and social etiquettes need to be followed. It just shows common respect and teaches our children to be polite. What about Signore (sir) and Signora in Italy? Monsieur, Madame, and Mademoiselle in France? It’s all just being respectful and courteous. We need to hold on to some, but not all, traditions in our country. It’s one reason why our country and our children are becoming so rude. We are referred to as the “rude Americans”. The next thing you know we’ll be referring to our president as “Dude” because somebody feels the title has an ugly history. My question is, were you there when it was being used as its former meaning? Did you personally suffer? It is – what it is – now! I would be willing to bet there are a lot of words in our language evolved from something you’d rather not use. For those offended, maybe we could start calling people Sir and Madam as polite forms of address instead, but I believe we need to use something – not just the person’s name or “hey you” or “dude”. I wonder what the words Sir and Madam evolved from? I’m sure someone will have a problem with it. Maybe the grandpappy mentioned earlier wasn’t taught any manners or respect. I wouldn’t lower myself to his standards all because of his misdeeds. Oh! if it makes you feel better, don’t call your husband Mister, use his name, it’s the rest of society who need to call him Mister.

SG- Come on now. Do you really think calling someone by their first name, rather than Mr./Ms., makes a person less moral? If a young adult came into the classroom and asked to be called a certain name, would it not be more disrespectful to call them something else? A name preference says nothing about a persons morality. And the founding fathers? I mean, I love the patriotism, don’t get me wrong. But coming here to get rich and then committing treason isn’t a great absolute to fall back on. Not to mention they did take the land and kill the inhabitants… It doesn’t matter how far we go back, actually. Institutional ideals have brought the same story- the struggle for power and people dying.

i think it is just polite i dont think it is to formal…but we dont say it im front of every person’s name.

As so much etiquette and courtesy has vanished over the years, I see absolutely no problem at all in clinging to these honorifics. I would far prefer to be called ‘Mister’ than ‘buddy,’ ‘dude,’ ‘big guy,’ or, most irritating of all, ‘chief.’
I will address women as ‘Ma’am,’ ‘Miss,’ or ‘Missus’ depending on the situation, or my knowledge of an individual. Showing a modicum of respect isn’t that difficult to do.

Btw, I certainly do not mean to knock any institutions or beliefs and especially not the founding fathers. Love the dudes (and their wives, equally of course).

The only reason anyone hangs on to these titles is to indicate whether the subject is female and not taken.

It’s always nice to be called “Miss”.

i agree with niomie

Honorifics are quite Horrific don’t you think? Why carry on with titles and ranks when we have fought generations for equality? We earn respect by our actions, kindness and compassion not because on a piece of paper it states that you must acknowledge someones status who may never well have earned it. If we do not acknowledge elder people by “Sir” or “M’am” or even in a formal setting, we are considered disrespectful? Yet we acknowledge a young person as “kid”, “child” or most often then not “pest”. Where is the respect here? Our young generations are those that will shape our futures to come, so how are we role modelling good behavior? I say out with the titles and throw them in the fire! Next time you see someone who you must acknowledge with respect how about trying to give them a nick name instead? Or adding an opposing title to their current title such as, “Good evening your Royal Pain in the ass!”. This will acknowledge your respect to the other person but balance out the status to ensure equality between all.
It’s always worked for me and if it didn’t well at least I had fun getting sent to the corner!

I don’t love being called “ma’am” when someone tries to get your attention when they don’t know your name. (After all, it follows from “madam” which has negative connotations in recent times.) I think we need a new way to call out to a woman who is over 30 years of age. We used to have “m’lady”. Can we come up with something besides “ma’am?”

This is certainly a muddy little report. Was it written by a 12-year-old? It implies that Ms. (a 20th Century invention) was in use in the 17th Century. It also obscures the fact that — at least in the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries — the title “Miss” referred to any unmarried woman.

Way to go Naomi! As for Ms. Miss, Mrs. call yourself what you want. It’s not my business but when Ms. first came in during the 70s’ the idea was that Mrs. or Miss designated martial status. Well. sometimes yes and sometimes no. Often when a never married woman reached a certain age, she was called Mrs. Divorced women continued to be called Mrs. And many women who were married but had established reputations in their businesses while still single were called Miss when they used their maiden and/or professional names and Mrs. when they used their married names. For example, Miss Helen Hayes was the same person as Mrs. Charles MacArthur. (and no, it didn’t only apply to show business) In other words, Mrs. or Miss did not necessarily describe a woman’s martial status. The Ms. supporters claimed they were fixing a problem that they merely made more complicated. But, if you like Ms., use Ms.

I find that Mrs. should generally be used only when the woman’s marital status is directly pertinent to the situation or serves as the basis for a woman’s authority (e.g. the First Lady, Mrs. Obama). Anything else is prying into one’s private life or making marital status an issue where it is irrelevant.

As for personal preference, if a woman prefers to be called Mrs. or Miss, she has every right to request that address, but I would hope that such a request be made in a polite manner with the understanding that calling a 50 year old woman “Miss” might be uncomfortable for some. And realize that in many cultures, it is outright demeaning (Fräulein is virtually dead in Germany).

“Mister” is not a “title” or an “honorific.” It is a polite mode of address and is the simple equivalent in English of monsieur, señor, signor, senhor, Herr, gospodin, kyrios, sidi, bey, etc., etc., etc. Its use says something nice about the user, but next to nothing about the person to whom it refers except his gender and (roughly) his age.

I guess I’m just old-fashioned (although I am only 22) but I am quite proud of my Mrs. For me it was part of the joy of getting married. It is much the same as wearing a wedding band, an outward display of my married status, not my female gender.
Using titles and other honorifics (such as Reverend or Doctor) is simply the polite thing to do. It is a sign of respect. Sir and Ma’am are dying out of our vocabulary, and I think they should be brought back. It is a sign of dignity to use them in a age where almost everything is handled with a disturbing air of causal disinterest.

I am 20 years old, and i was raised with respect… So you call a man “sir”, and a woman “ma’am”. No matter the marital status….. =)

Very interesting stuff. The reason women have more than one title to choose from is because originally thats the way women wanted it to be. Now young women dont know that and blame men for it when its not the truth. Happens alot in society today, so it has nothing to do with male supremacy and more to do with women wanting the ability to note which they are for social reasons.

The simplest solution will never be used. Since Mr. refers to a married or unmarried man, then Mrs. should be used to refer to a married or unmarried woman. Personally, I would not be offended if there were separate titles for married and unmarried men. I am married. I wear a wedding ring. I am not ashamed or embarrassed to let people know that I am married. I fail to understand why women get so bent out of shape by the issue. Maybe someone could enlighten me.

One thing in life, which, once used, we never get back, is time. Instead of wasting this precious commodity in first, reading, and then commenting on such a banal subject, consider how much time everyone involved in the preceding 131 comments has now removed from their lifetimes in idle chit-chat!
Allowing say, one minute to read and digest each comment, and one minute to write a reply or new nonsense remark, that would amount to over four hours per person. Multiply by at least 131 people wasting time with spurious comment, and adding in quite a few more who gave up in disgust we are approaching 600 wasted hours in worrying about how to address others.
Better spent cleaning behind the ‘fridge you may think?
By the way, I thought that ‘Ms’ had morphed into ‘Mz’ for some reason!
Regards, and pardon my math[s].

no prefix will please everyone, but “ms.” serves uniformity of address and allows a safe escape from awareness/irrelevance of marital status.

While perhaps it may be too difficult for juvinile delinquents who speak only in grammatically erroneous terms, I believe that those of us who wish for respect to remain a part of this deteriorating culture should stand up for showing respect to others. We do not have to demean others with every word we say, such as the more colorful metaphors vociferated to drivers and pedestrians. I believe that speaking with respect may even, as Americans say: save one’s behind, as it shows those around us that we are respectable and mean no harm, and may instill in others a minute amount of trust in us before they even know our names. Why people seem to believe that respect is an unacceptable, or “uncool”, trait to acquire, I am uncertain. However I do believe that those that share my beliefs should fight to keep the simple kindnesses alive, as the morality of this country is fading so rapidly. Alas, I fear that not enough people share my opinion to save the common courtesies.

Oooh er, missus! As we Brits would say…

“Hey, you” works pretty good, but…

I know that “mistress” can mean “kept woman” but there are numerous examples from literature of past genrations that clearly refer to to ‘Mistress” as the female form of “master” – Heck, watch “Ladie and the Tramp”

In the mean time, there are genders in our world, and many people want to be called the one they are.

Formality and Respect are not the same thing, but each has their place.

Ms. was in vented in the 1970s, not earlier. Gloria Steinem came up with this usage.

My dad insists on using [miz] with older women, regardless of their marital status. I usually call someone Mrs. only if I know them by such a title (for instance, a teacher), and with young women I use ‘Miss’ as I would in the romance languages, like with Sra./Senorita.

I usually say ‘Sir’ or ‘Ma’am’ when I am trying to be polite with someone I don’t know well. But a lot of times people get mad and tell me not to say that (especially if it makes them feel old, haha)

I typically use Ms. when I have no idea the marital status of a female. If I know her and she is married I use Mrs. and if she is unmarried I use Ms. I’ve never really used Miss in a professional manner before.

Interesting article. I knew what Mr. and Mrs. stood for. When I got married 17 years ago, I resisted to be called by Mrs. Thomas Smith (name change). I felt like my whole 25 years of identity disappeared plus my husband is not my master. We both agreed we are equals and committed to each other equally. Other interesting fact that in our Deaf community – we do not use honorifics such as Mr. and Mrs. because it is simply does not exist in our language. So, in our culture we show respect by using sign names (sign name used by handshape and movements that is used to uniquely identify a person, just like a name).

I am guilty of being entirely too informal and prefer first names when dealing with other adults myself. I do agree that the social niceties of addressing people in a more formal manner with Mr., Mrs., or Miss is very nice in certain situations and becoming a lost art. Personally I dislike Ms because it sounds uneducated and originated (at least in my recollection) with the radical feminist movement. It does serve a generic purpose but grates on the ears. A word to the wise woman: don’t get upset if someone calls you Mrs. ,Miss, or Ma’am if you are not, but take it as a term of respect and smile graciously. What can it hurt? P.S The same goes for when people open doors for you-the proper response is “Thank You!” and a smile.
It’s called being kind, not patronizing.

@ Katie (waaay above)

Thank you! At least there is one more person out there with the common sense to be neither be offended by things which are not deliberately offensive, nor understand those who seem to SET OUT to be offended.
Seriously, lighten up. The historical origin of a word does not mean there is sexism, implied or otherwise, in using such honourifics today.

Personally i would put Mrs on most letters to women, unless we were quite friendly or I specifically knew her marital status. Where i come from, Mrs/Missus is quite polite and respectful, and is not necessarily tied to marital status. It is becoming the female Mr/Mister.

Yes – being called “M’am” makes me feel old! So everyone put your thinking cap on and come up with something wonderful to call me!! Just please don’t include me in “you guys!”

( JX – I wouldn’t mind you calling me “missus!” – that sounds more youthful!)

that is a bit weird. wat about boys under the age of 18? for teacher, we say sir or miss. for mrs we say their full name (e.g Mrs Coverdale) but sometimes we call them miss as well. : ) : – )

lol

I seem to recall that an elementary school teacher (circa. 1958) instructed us that the term ‘master’ was proper in referring to a very young boy; e.g., “Master Jones”. I have never heard that from any other source.

Was she correct?

this is cool

How about men referring to women as “girls?” They think they are being considerate while I think it undervalues the status I have reached.

That is very interesting I have always wondered where these titles came from. Especially after studying Spanish and being so aware of the formal form of speech vs the informal.

One time I called somebody “Sir”, he said: damn it! don’t sir me

Seriously how can anyone NOT have known that? Isn’t it totally obvious? When you first found out what “abbreviation” meant, wasn’t that your very first question?
I can hardly believe this.

As far as honorifics go, I mostly address people with “@” these days on Twitter. We should all be “@”

I think all women should just be called “lady” as it is a proper female term, and all men “sir” or something like these anyway

If you look at newspapers from the 1960’s and earlier, you will notice that a woman was always referred to with her husbands name, such as “Mrs. John Smith”, rather than her own: “Mrs. Jill Smith”. This seemed more in line with the archaic origin of mistress (such as “Mistress of John Smith”) than her own title. Not sure if this is what was intended, but an interesting inference.

Personally, I like the use of Mr. and Ms. when being formal, and first or full names when being less formal.

I personally hate being addressed as Ms. It makes me feel old.

I am Indian, and using titles like Mr Ms has been an integral part of our learning. So, I wouldnt know of a better way to address a senior. No longer does the title Mr. refers to “Master”, like it did back in the 17th century. Using these titles provides us a common platform to address people from all over the world, irrespective of the caste, religion or nationality. Hence we must continue using these titles.

As a teacher, I try to teach my students to use Mr. or Mrs. (or Ms. when appropriate). I am respectful of their position (6th graders) and when speaking to them use sir or ma’am. As in yes, ma’am – or no, sir.

The school (public) as a whole tries to instill these social niceties into the students. We also try to teach them the appropriate times and places to use the proper language. ie. you would not use slang when presenting a formal presentation to a group of investors, or formal language when hanging out with your friends.

There is a time and place for everything, even formal language. But it is funny when they accidentally call a male teacher Miss. We understand though that they are having trouble with the translation because they are mostly second language learners.

I hope these titles are done away with completely. Words like master (what mr evolved from) imply sovereignty over another human being, something we as a society should distance ourselves from. Like sir, it is a remnant of a feudalistic society. Lets not disguise it as common courtesy either, these titles were something the peasants had to call their rulers and since most people are descendants of peasants, it became a commonly accepted part of the language.

Miss Manners says that “Master” is used on the package one mails to a small boy for his birthday. We stop using the term when the child is old enough to complain about it.

“Ms” came into being in the 1970s. It is especially appropriate in the workplace, where a woman’s marital status is entirely irrelevant. If we had separate terms for married and unmarried men, then older, unmarried men might find themselves targets of embarrassing, unnecessary discussions. Such conversations, especially in a job setting, are the kind of thing “Ms” seeks to forestall.

In South Africa we use all of the polite forms of address, but we also have the “politically correct” one, ie Me. this is for any kind of woman, be she married, single, teenager, grandmother, lesbian etc etc.

What bothers me is that they pronounce it as it is written, and it sounds like something a sheep would say, and it is relatively new and doesn’t sit well with me.

The traditional way young white Afrikaans speaking children were raised to address their elders was “Oom” and “Tannie” which means “Uncle” and “Aunt”, which is very informal and somewhat puts a child in his/her place. I believe the cut off for calling somebody this was 10 years older than you. And in the workplace? This leads to all kinds of awkward situations and embarrassment, because when you first join the work force, you are say, 20ish, and to address somebody at 30 as “uncle” or “aunt” is just not on, makes them feel very old and they are not family!

I wish we could stick to calling each other Mr and Ms and to heck with all the rest.

‘“honorifics” as you’ve called them’…you’re on Dictionary.com right now, so go ahead and look up that word. Naomi reveals a tone of disdain for the author referring to honorifics as honorifics, but proceeds to defend the use of honorifics as a means of honoring old men.

I am amazed that the 14 scandels refers to Republican Mark Foley sending questionable emails to pages, but ignores the Democrat who actually had sex with a page. Any bias here ya think?

So, what is the appropriate form of address in a letter to an unknown person whose name is “Pat”, “Lynn”, “Dana”, or where only a first initial is used, but formal enough that addressing with the first name isn’t appropriate? I really don’t want to assume and address a letter to Ms. Lynn Jones, if Lynn is in fact a man, and vice versa. If addressed to an unknown “John” or “Alice”, one can simply open with “Dear Sir” or “Dear Madam”. (“Sir” and “madam” were not addressed in your discourse above, however.)

Better add Ass and Donkey instead of Mrs. and Mr.

An empty mind is a devils’ paradise.
Do something fruitful to yourself, your family, and society, rather than indulge in all this controversy.

“Ms is either a spinster or a lesibian or both.”

Seriously?

I’m married – call me Mrs. It has nothing to do with my “sexual status” as you have no clue about what I do (or don’t do) in the bedroom.

1. I may consider myself a feminist, but prefer to be addressed by Mrs. rather than Ms. because I was so happy to be married for the first time at the age of 53. Admittedly I’m old school – 63 yrs old now.
2. I love etymology but we shouldn’t give 14th century usage guide us. One reason that English is such a vibrant language is that we allow it to change, albeit sometimes reluctantly.
3. Quakers traditionally have refrained from all honorifics (not job titles) as classist. That would have included “Mister”, but I’m not so sure that it applies in the same way today because it’s used regardless of class when the first name is unknown.
4. If at all possible, the best practice is to find out what a person prefers to be called.

Here’s another example of high school graduates, and older adults, who received the bare minimum of English skills from their schools, and no one gave a damn. So now, little bits of English trivia (because English has indeed become “trivial”) tend to surprise and even shock
the blue collar clock-punchers by the thousands.

No, I’m sorry Paulette, but the only thing Ms. S invented was a new kind of tension headache.

Whilst Mr. suffices for all men, women are still divided-up into married and unmarried. Let’s just go back to Ms., for mistress. It’s still seems more polite than just referring to someone by their last name (which sounds so 19th century boarding school.)

I cringe when title is a required field in any online or electronic form. I don’t associated myself with any title. I am “first name – last name” – that is my identity. My kids’ friends call me by my first name and it doesn’t bother me – it doesn’t mean they don’t respect me; it’s just how things are done now and I think that’s just fine.

what should i have blushed and / or laughed at?

I like to call the wifey me moth

lol

Zephram Stark: “The only reason anyone hangs on to these titles is to indicate whether the subject is female and not taken.”

You are wrong. Even if you haven’t read or don’t believe the comments here, I am here to tell you I have other reasons.

Jane: “It’s always nice to be called ‘Miss’.”

Generally I like it. But I’m not your typical guy.

Fred: “’Mister’ is not a ‘title’ or an ‘honorific.’”

Oh, boy. Wrong. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/honorific

Paulette: “Ms. was in vented in the 1970s, not earlier. Gloria Steinem came up with this usage.”

Prove it. Or, put differently:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Ms.
—Usage note
Ms. came into use in the 1950s as a title before a woman’s surname when her marital status was unknown or irrelevant.

So Random House doesn’t know what it’s doing? Maybe they just made it up.

While I do agree that these titles are harmless, I’m not sure that Naomi’s sentiment is entirely accurate: I don’t know why one might think that titles are the last piece of common ground between generations, political parties, or cultures, but I’m fairly certain that’s not the case.

I think it behooves us to remember the classism, sexism, and racism that lie beneath words we use every day. I’m not sure tradition for tradition’s sake is particularly sane in an objective sense, but it’s certainly better to indulge the linguistic whims of tradition after becoming well-informed than it is to use them thoughtlessly.

There are so many opinions here! *Grin*
I guess you could call me a feminist – I believe that woman can do absolutely EVERYTHING a man can. It’s true some women cannot do stuff that men can, but then some men cannot do what women can! The only differences between us, really, is who contributes what when creating a life together. And don’t give me any nonsense about women being unable to stand up when peeing! LOL! While I certainly can’t, I do know of several cultures where the women are very practiced at this. But I’m diverting off topic here…
I adore being referred to as a “miss,” maybe it’s because I’m an old fashioned but it’s never been used in a derogatory way towards me, and it has always made me feel cared for, and respected. I’ve never been particularly fond of the Ms. title, but that’s more because I don’t like the sound it makes (ok, I’m weird, but then don’t we all have our idiosyncrasies).
I’ve always preferred to refer to those older than me, or when in a business situation, using an honorific. I feel it’s respectful. I care about people and to show that I like to show that I respect them, thus the usage of honorifics – this ISN’T to say that I believe that those who do not use honorifics are disrespectful, my usage of honorifics is MY way of showing care and respect, it may not be yours.
I do agree, however, that having 3 separate terms for women is downright irritating and I always find myself reverting to Ms. just to be on the safe side.
I could care less where the terms came from, a lot of words we use today don’t have the same meaning (some even mean the complete opposite) that they once did. What matters is what they mean now.
I really don’t think the problem is the use, or lack of use, of the honorifics, the problem is the WAY they are used. I use them to show care and respect, others use them to lord it over their so-called “underlings”. People like that don’t get my respect or an honorific from me. In fact, I’ve had such horrible experiences with medical doctors that I refuse to refer to any of them using the honorific of Dr. I actually prevent myself from addressing my own MD in any way and will refer to him only by his last name in conversations not involving him – it’s a shame because he is one Dr. I actually like, but I actually feel ill trying to force the term out of my mouth.
Anyway, those are my thoughts, long though they may be.

hahahahaha
awww thats sooo cuteee

Mrs? Ms? Miss? I prefer “Professor” since that is my profession.

Just use “Ms.” for women. Why do we have to complicate things and label women according to their marital status? Who cares, and ask them if you care. Additionally, men’s labels don’t change when they’re married, so keep it simple and stupid and use “Ms.” You should agree on this if you think men and women are viewed as equal people.

I’ve frequently wondered about the abbreviation for Missus. Mrs. = Mr’s, right? As in, belonging to Mister?

We should use two different prefixes for men – one for an umarried man, and one for a married man.

I don’t see the connection as to what the word sue to mean as opposed to what it means now. My brother’s name is Roy, which derives from the French word for “king.” I’ve never considered him as my king. All names come from some past source, but it is entirely meaningless now.

I don’t care what Mr., Mrs., Miss or Ms. used to mean. What it means now is what counts. And as a good Southerner (and not a racist or sexist Southerner at that), I use the terms regularly. Even toward younger people; its only polite. (No, I don’t have a problem using Ms. Most people I know have no problem with it.)

I don’t care if nobody else use the terms. That’s they’re business. Just be polite to one another; the terms will come through even when they’re not said.

I’m a woman who is earning a master’s degree 10 years after earning a BFA. I told friends & family not to bother with graduation gifts; they can just call me MASTER. Hahahahahaha.

I usually stick with Mr. or Ms. – particularly in business or with people older than me – until the other party informs me, or our relationship becomes casual enough, to refer to him/her by a first name. If someone wants to address me by a title, I typically expect Ms. (no ring), but I’m a pretty relaxed person who can accept the title or any variation of my first name. I find things like blatant disrespect and dishonesty more offensive than neglect to use proper titles…but then, I suppose it’s all subjective.

I was taught as a child to refer to my elders as Mr. and Ms. When I worked at a bank as an adult in an industrial town, I had several older men (blue-collar laborers) get quite angry and offended when I called them ‘Mr.’ They often replied to me “Don’t call me Mr. – I work for a living.” I was taught it was a sign of respect, but they considered it great disrespect.

Looks like I’m in the minority on this one. To me respect is not wrapped up in titles. In fact, I am actually rather uncomfortable when someone other than a complete stranger refers to me as Ms. So-and-So (or Miss or Mrs.). I get particularly uncomfortable when referred to as ma’am. Perhaps I’m too self-deprecating, or perhaps it’s the fact that “sir” and “ma’am” really leave an icky feeling in my stomach. I think it relates to historic relationships between Caucasians and African-Americans. I prefer to just be called by my first name and to call others by theirs. I will respect you through a kind spirit and a warm attitude and expect the same in return. Titles do very little if the sentiment of respect is not there. I will say, however, that having recently moved to the South, I do appreciate when women’s first names are preceded by Miss–not due the respect it conjures but because I find it endearing and sweet.

I was raised with a nod to old southern traditions, so the title of Mr. & Mrs. was always respected. I dislike young people who refer to their elders by their first name in social or business situations. If, we as a society, went back to speaking standardized English, perhaps there wouldn’t be so many writing errors. Commentators would not commit the grammarical mistakes heard all over the world. We have disrespected language for so long most people don’t even know or recognize them.

I grew up in SoCal, a first generation American of Hispanic heritage, where honorifics where taught and expected to be used amongst relatives, elders, and authority figures. I remember being tuaght to introduce myself by my full name with the adendum “a sus ordenes” (at your service/order. I haven’t required such of my kids, but they address relatives, elders and authority figures as I did. Additionally, I don’t allow their friends to refer to me or my wife than anything other than Mr. and Mrs. No first names basis.

I do find it unprofessional to be refered to first name by younger generations in a business or professional setting. Even when going to the gym I get irked when I’m welcomed by some 20 year at the front desk by my first name. I’m a member/guest, not your workout buddy.

@Naomi:
I completely agree with you. You may have gone a wee bit over the edge with the feminist argument. (Not what you said, but the way you said it) You show a whole other level of maturity that is not so much seen in women nowadays.

This is pretty interesting.

cool!!!!!!

I think it’s great to be called Ms. in case someone around is looking too. It’s a distinguished difference between Mrs. and Ms. It’s really not that big of a deal to be noted by your marital status. We just need to come up with one that let’s us know when a man is single too.

Very interesting to read this discussion as a German and compare the feelings we might have towards titles. Before, I had assumed for a long time that “Mr” / “Ms” are used in much the same way as “Herr” or “Frau” in Germany, but obviously this is not the case.

In Germany, we have a somewhat similar situation: We have the option to address people as “Herr or Frau Schmidt” (Mr. and Mrs. Smith) or by their Christian names. This is associated with using two different words for “you”: “Sie” in the case of “Herr / Frau” or “du” in the case of name. (We also had “Fräulein” (Miss) for an unmarried woman, but this came out of use some 20-30 years ago because people felt it was inadequate to distinguish between women according to their marital status. Which I personally feel is completely justified.)

The difference might be that the distinction has not so much to do with respect (you can perfectly well call someone “Herr Schmidt” and be full of contempt) but with the informality or formality of the setting and with how close you are to someone. You would address strangers with “Herr” or “Frau” and “Sie” (unless they are very young), and also people whom you want to keep at a distance, or people in a formal setting. But never a friend or family member. (It would be very odd to address parents-in-law with “Herr” or “Frau”, and I was surprised to read that it happens in English-speaking countries).

Still, what is happening is that people of my generation (about 40) and younger use Christian names and “du” more easily and quickly. Older people need more time, better acquaintance, or a formal invitation to do so. With people 40 and younger, and in some milieus (especially academics) it happens that Christian names and “du” are also used in the workplace. But we would always ask someone if they accept it (because it is a sign of informality and closeness that the other may not want).

Personally, I like the distinction that allows you to show how close or informal you want to become to someone; and I like the fact people are being asked. However, as soon as I deal with someone more intensively (not just the woman at the supermarket counter), I am much more comfortable with the “du” and Christian name. It just feels friendlier.

@Ben – Obviously, you are still young. We respect the elderly because they are the ones who have the experience we seek. They are wiser, they have lived more, they have also fought in our wars and seen the transformation of an America they no longer recognize due to punk kids like you who think they know everything. They remember the days of when kids had respect for others and their property. When people helped each other more, and had to “make due” with what they had instead of stealing it from someone else. They long for the those days when you could leave your door unlocked and let your kids run the neighborhood without fear. Some days you will get it. No, I’m not elderly. But I got it because MY parents taught me some manners.

I always use Sir or Mam

I agree with…
Zach Wahrer: How is saying Mr. or Mrs. showing courtesy? It’s funny that we even still use those titles when they’ve lost all meaning in modern culture. Let it die.

Amanda: That said, my problem lies not with Mr., but with why, in the 21st Century, so many still insist on making a distinction between a married (Mrs.) and unmarried (Miss) woman. It’s terribly archaic and insulting.

Suki: As a 13 year old girl, please don’t attack me when I say I understand that this is an honoured tradition but I think there should be one change. Why is it so important to know the marriage status of a woman, but it is only “Mr.” for men? There should be a “Msr.” or “Mrr.” or something for a married man and then “Mr.” can be reserved for single men only

Ben: With everything he said and, “Tradition alone isn’t reason enough, unless perhaps you’re a bitter old conservative.”

So-called “bitter young feminist”: I don’t feel it is necessary to have so many ways to label a woman. We do not do this to men. If anything, we should refer to men as mr. and women as ms. This would demonstrate equality and would prevent a woman from being so defined by her marital status, her abilities would be given more consideration in its stead. I am not bitter about this; I simply believe it would be a worthwhile change.

I think it was Robert Heinlein who said “An armed society is a polite society.” That tells you something about why all of these honorific, flowery words were much more common in the days when men wore daggers, swords, and firearms. I have an earned Ph.D., but don’t insist on being called Dr. I think it is adequate to say “Exalted One.” (smirk). Then I am not (usually) armed, so most rascals can get away with my first name. You may touch the hem of my garment if you don’t wash your hand afterward.

Back to reality, I don’t get why people get their panties into a twist over such a silly issue. Don’t take yourself so damned seriously.

I’m fairly certain that the etymology given in this article is backward.

“Mister” and “mistress” come from the Old French “Maistre” (later “Maitre”) and “Maistresse” (“Maitresse”). Both are equivalent, meaning of “high-ranking man/woman.” It’s an honorific marking someone as being in charge of other lower-ranking people, be it a knight who has servants under him, the head maid in charge of the housemaids under her, or a restaurant maitre d’ who supervises the waitstaff. “Mistress” did not originate with the meaning of “governess”; that’s just another example of the marker of leadership, in this case, “woman who’s in charge of the children.”

The love/sex angle comes in from the Medieval French courtly love tradition. The main theme in this poetry was an unmarried man expressing a deep and passionate love for a woman who was unattainable, usually because she outranked him and/or was married. Not only was this love never to be consummated, but he was not allowed to mention her name. It was completely one sided. Because of the difference in their ranks, the unnamed woman was always referred to by an honorific. The honorific was used specifically to emphasize that she was well above his class.

This left a mark on romance in Western society that persists even today. The theme of a man adoring a woman from afar, knowing that she’s “out his league,” is common in everything from Shakespearean sonnets to power ballads. Even well in to the19th century, poets used phrases like “my lady” and “my mistress” to indicate this difference in rank, basically saying, “I love you so much that I am yours to command; I am your servant.” (Of course, the poems usually go on to whine endlessly about how cruel she is because she won’t give in to his desires, but that’s another issue.) The difference in rank came to be integral to much of the Western concept of love. Only in the case when a married man has a “mistress” other than his wife does it imply an adulterous affair.

And what of the title “Mrs”? It always meant “top-ranking woman of the household.” It did not derive from “woman having an affair with a married man.” In fact, the latter meaning is derived from the original honorific title.

Personally, I skip the whole matter and go bare. [First Name] [Last Name] with nothing in front. The only way I’ll put letters in front of my name is if they’re Dr, because I’ll have earned those. However that boat has long since sailed.

By saying this though I’m not saying that my way is the right way. Everyone’s way is the right way. I believe everyone is equal, regardless of gender, whether biological or chosen.

Call yourself what you want, and respect how others want to be called. It’s that simple.

I feel that Mr. and Mrs. are fine, and Ms. for an unmarried woman as a formal greeting (ie. in a letter). What I have an issue with is when the formal ettiqutte for a letter is: Mr. & Mrs. David Walker. The woman is completely dropped from the equasion. Can’t we just say Mr. & Mrs. Walker? In my opinion, this is the man playing master, when we know they aren’t capable of it!

nerds

I always thought that it was interesting that you could always tell when a woman was married or not by her honorifics, but never a man.

I wonder what they were thinking about when they created this honorific system. Just a thought…

I think in 2011 the appropriate is Mama Like!

But what about “maam?”

I not only think that proper titles should be given to ‘Those Who Really Deserve Those Titles’, I also believe that people who don’t deserve their titles, should have to prove themselves, or stop using them.

Since I was young, the title given to a Man, (Mr. for Mister) was extremely powerful in granting that Man the honor he deserved in his place in society. The title given to Married women, showed this same honor…Mrs. was used only after the Lady was married. Before that, she was approached by a man, with the title of Miss.

Everyone was quite conscious of their need to present themselves with good manners. Even little children were approached by doting adults with the title of Miss or Master (oddly’Master’!).

I think that in today’s society, these beautiful titles are removed because people have lost the ability to accept each other, because of the silliness of prejudice and other foolishness.

It was a beautiful world, before some silly people decided to cripple it with a slow and easy descent into uncaring ignorance, and their own self hate.

We should in my opinion, defy the odds pushed against us, and learn to love ourselves as well as have good manners when around other humans, and other animals. It would make all the difference in our day and (!) evenings!

Thanks,
Glory

Of course, I think these courtesies should remain intact.

On a separate but related matter, I was also taught that “Master” was used to address a young boy who was beyond infancy but not yet an adult–generally from the time a boy child could walk until legal adulthood, which is presumably, by the prevailing standard in America, aged 18.

It was a very common thing when I was growing up (in the US) to be referred to as “Master Thomas” or “Master Tom” and I remember addressing birthday cards to my boyhood friends as “Master So-and-So.”

I would greatly appreciate if you would expand upon today’s article and include that form of address for young boys. I assumed at the time it was a way to distinguish between “Mister” for adult males and “Master” for boys. I still use it, although I don’t know that many youngsters and most people who hear it consider a quaint, abstruse vestige of my archaic upbringing. (i.e.: “You actually wrote out birthday card addressees?!”)

And while we’re on the subject: how did “Mister” become a standard form of address in the United States Navy (and other navies?) and not in any other branch of the armed services?

It seems to me that we more often use the “Mr.” or “Ms./Mrs.” prefixes when we do not know the person. Once one becomes acquainted with a person, the first name is often used, with the possible exception, perhaps, is that the relationship remains on a purely professional basis, such as banker/customer, etc.

I would not be insulted if no one used Mrs/Ms when addressing me, but I sure do hate to hear the word “sucks” all over television, including newscasters, and even parents, children, college students, you name it.

The original meaning of that word as it appeared in graffiti on school walls, etc, 40 and 50 years ago has not changed simply due to it’s common use these days. It is degrading just to have to hear it, and the speaker is degrading himself/herself each time is is uttered.

If anyone calls me Ms. I get extremely angry. I often correct them because Miss is the correct term, and Mrs. will be when I’m married. Just because the history of something isn’t totally politically correct does NOT mean we should change our usage! Mistress used to mean “lady of the house,” not slut, so why is it a bad thing that Mrs. and Miss are based on mistress? And anyway, Ms. is based on mistress as well, it’s just used so that no one knows whether you’re married or not.

Mr., Mrs., and Miss!!!! Use them!

I work in a Senior Center and I feel that that using Mr./Sir Ms./Ma’am are the best ways to address someone, especially a newer acquaintance. If they desire to be called by a different title or name they will let me know, but no offense if ever taken if I start out with these honorary titles. However if I don’t start out with them offense may be taken. There is just something about showing respect for others that is often lost in our society and if it can be brought in in something as simple as addressing someone then why not. I recognize some may feel uncomfortable being called Mr. or Ms. due to reverence which they have reserved for others and they don’t feel that title fits them, however when done with respect, not as a protocol it can break down barriers and open conversation.

It’s funny. But there are quite a few comments on here with people talking about how the people who don’t like the titles Mr. Ms. etc. are getting upset and bent out of shape. But I have read through all the comments. Seems like there is a lot of bending out of shape from all sides starting with the first comment. If I had started the conversation and stated that “I hope that no outrage will come from all the old fashioned people who can’t handle change” I would be setting up a situation where I would be foolish to not think people would take offense. That would be a rude attempt to create a caricature of people who don’t see eye to eye with me. To each her/his own.

And again, learn to stop carrying so much baggage around. Sometimes you miss getting to know someone or learning about another interesting point of view when you drag all your opinions and beliefs around with you.

That is REALLY, I mean R-E-A-L-L-Y really weird.

In today’s usage, Ms. seems to be a title spawned of the feminist movement in the United States (in their effort to rid themselves of a perceived detrimental relationship status, that of wife and subject to their husbands), going back to the early 1980s; while Mrs. refers to a married or formerly married woman, and Miss refers to an unmarried woman or girl. I often tell people that those ladies who use the term Ms. don’t want you to know if they’re married or not. Why hide that you are married or single? Maybe we could use Ms. to indicate a divorced woman. Are there any suggestions for the title of a divorced man? How about Mst. or Mn.?

Yay, Jessica! Finally someone who says it like it is when referring to what Miss, Mrs., and Ms. stand for (e.g. Virginal, Unavailable, Spinster/Lesbian)

I have no problem with others continuing the use of Mr. and Ms., but I do not choose to use these things myself. For example, when I address a letter (yes, I still occasionally use “snail mail”!!!) I put the first name and the last name of the addressee and no title. I guess it goes back to my being offended when my relatives would address a letter to my 29 year old self by using “Miss” which seemed to imply they thought I was still virginal, a fact I found insulting at that age. Of course it is nobody’s business whether I was virginal or not, and so it would have been much better to just address me as my first and last name–which after all would not change as my title did!!! Of course my last name did actually change when my title became Mrs. so maybe my argument is faulty ^_^

I work around 35 professors and 2 department chairs and I call all of them by their first names. My team usually call the professors “Dr. So & So” which is fine with me. But part of my persona as a manager is warmth and informality which invite collaboration and so far these have worked fine in both my work and social life, so I guess I will continue with them!

most people just say ‘yo’ or ‘dude’ or ‘dudett’ or most people dont even. they just go ,”HEY, YOU!”

this is really interesting. In today’s society, to me anyway, Miss refers to an unmarried woman (I strongly prefer this to “Ms.” or “Ma’am”), but does have a strong connotation that the woman is young (I’m 22). Ms. seems a little too feminist for my taste (don’t get me wrong, I’m all for equal rights, but believe people are too easily offended at times), but it seems to often be the accepted standard on job, college, credit, or other applications. Too bad there usually isn’t a “Miss” option

That is REALLY, I mean R-E-A-L-L-Y really weird. ME TOO.

get a life, Alva – superiority complex much?

Well I feel old, because when I was growing up there was only Mr. & Mrs. But, I have always liked “Ms.” since it came out, as that takes away the embaressment in this day and age where you have Ladies that co-inhabit among other things. Also, then if the male is the Lord it doesn’t really have to be over that woman.

But being a Wedding Planner I know that when a Lady has been asked to get married most of the time they love writing Mrs. So and so, even if it’s just in their journals, lol. But I know on one wants to be considered a man whore (at least not in person), so let’s keep it simple. Mr. and Ms. I think is best, and divorced people should just be “EX’d Out Period!

People like the first poster are aggressive and demean others, but consider themselves “polite” because they make reference to another persons gender and marital status every time they address them. Politeness is not as simple as saying Mr or Ms. Show your respect for other people in your actions.

Also, there is no need for honorifics to denote a person’s gender and marital status. If you don’t already know these things about a person, you needn’t know.

HAHAHAHA… not -_-

I always expect to be addressed properly. Mr Fart is the only thing I will answer to. ANything else just plain stinks.

I think anyone who wants to keep these traditions should try spending a day saying them properly: calling people “master” and “mistress” and see if they don’t feel out-moded then! Haha.

Society and its wellbeing will not be affected whether or not we call others by “appropriate” prefixes to show respect or maritial status. It is not a bad thing if someone calls another mr. or mrs. but it is also not a bad thing if someone doesn’t.
One glove my sisters and brothers.

I’m homeschooled, and I’ve always been used to calling adults by Mr. or Mrs. __. The other day, my friend’s mom asked me to call her by her first name, and I said that I would but it would pain every bone in my proper homeschool body. She said she didn’t mind that much.

I once had a job (inventory management) where my title was “Master Scheduler”. Sometimes, as I joke, I would refer to myself as “Mistress Scheduler”. I’m sure it conjured up visions of something other than spreadsheets.

I didn’t love the first few times I was called “Ma’am”, it made me feel old. But, I am not getting any younger, and besides, I live in Texas now, and that is just polite. This feminist certainly has no problem with that, just as a gentleman opening a door for me isn’t saying that I don’t have the ability! And I’ve held the door for men, too, if I got there first. It’s courtesy.

I find the term “too feminist” weird, since to me, that means “too concerned about equality”.

you know as I have been reading more comments I can see that this is also a matter of age (I’m 53) and I don’t allow any of my grown children’s friends to call me by my first name, as it is a form of respect for not only my age but my wisdom. On the other hand I don’t like the word Ma’am either as that sounds so old fashioned for this day and age. But being spanish, I understand the formal and informal way of addresses people also. Now American are of the “New World” and American’s now are always trying to do something new and different, but in this case I feel it would be a great diservice to make American’s look like we have no class! In every other country they have ways of using these titles and it’s been like that since before us and will be so after us, and as a Country we should want to represent ourselved with class and style too. So, our younger generations may not understand how important these honorific titles are, but it is very important in how the world views Americans. The reason I say use Ms. is just because it can be very assumptious of people to refer to older women as Miss or Mrs. when we may not be, and it is insulting to refer to us as Ma’am as that sounds like your talking about our grandmother when we try so hard to become the New 40’s when we are in our 50’s etc… Why do we have to be married in our 30’s on up or if called Ms. refers to being a Lesbian, that’s crazy or maybe at our age we don’t exist as women anymore?
We are the ones that are mostly called by all those titles, and I am not a (virgin, or taken or a lesbian), I am a woman who would like to be respected and carry a title of respect, so Ms. works for all females and it should not offend anyone. And most of the time after you use that a lady will tell you what she wants to be called if she is not comfortable with that title.

I hope this helps coiming from my age group too.

How is this supposed to make us laugh?

interesting but still, how?

Actually historically there are as many ways to refer to a male’s status as the Mrs. Miss, and Ms now for females. Thankfully they’re obsolete and no longer used commonly, such as esquire, which I can say I’ve received several letters over the last 28 years addressed with and I’m neither English gentry, nor an American lawyer.

I went through high school (ended 2000 for reference) still being referred to as Master by teachers. By my surname by a lot of classmates, both methods of address being considered archaic at that point here in Australia but it happens.

The fact terms such as Ms and Miss are both in common usage is a matter of personal choice being practiced. If you have issues with that you might try educating the ladies in question.

As a married man, I would prefer that my wife be called “Mrs. ____” by children (she is a school teacher by trade).
Also, this article doesn’t address the “Mizz” title. How does Mz. differ from Ms. or Miss? (I remember watching a movie one time where a woman insisted on being called Mizz ____.)

Then now, how do we address the Gays & Lesbians?

SAVE THE WHALES!!! ♥

I once heard that the terms Mrs, Ms, and Missus were derived women misunderstanding the word Mr. but I wouldn’t blame them because it’s hard to hear from the kitchen. . . . .

I would prefer to skip the title when filling in forms to order things. I don’t want the fact that I am female to be on my packages. I prefer to use no title and my first initial with my last name.

Who cares this is the PRESENT day not the past. That is why people move on and start using simpler terms as in Mrs. or Ms. or Mr…….SO MOVE ON ESPECIALLY YOU, Naomi!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!;D

Naomi, u stink. I agree with that Gibbs Dude

mister, mistress, whatever I just use mr. and mrs.

hi

‘Ignore the problems and avail the opportunities.’ This universal formula or natural law is clearly depicted in Naomi’s comment. We all should appriciate that and should follow the same natural law.

I like being called mister it makes me feel grown up, not that I’m saying I’m like 8 years old or something!:D

I agree with Naomi. But gosh people, stop hating on her so much. She had an opinion and she said it. Get over it. Just because it is not your opinion it doesn’t mean you have to hate on what she said.

Now, I don’t fully agree with the “bitter young feminist” thing she said, I still think that was just her opinion. I think feminists have their place in time and I thank all the ones in the past that fought for women to have rights. But in this day in age, we do have our rights, and I see really no reason for them.

On the words Mr and Ms, I don’t say it as much as I’d like, as a young person but I still think it is not only traditional but nice. I think it’s a nice thing to do by calling someone by their proper name like Mr or Miss or Mrs. So I see no problem with it.

I don’t think there’s a problem with using Mr. and Mrs. It does, however get confusing with the Miss and Ms.’s and I was recently told to address a woman as Ms. if I didn’t know her marital status.
Sure, there are some flaws, as mentioned, why is a woman described by her marital status? I don’t think that poses as a problem, nor do I see it a problem for the wife to take the man’s last name.
I think it’s respectful to address someone as Mr. or Mrs.
I have a bit of a problem with these times because we are re-evaluating all these things that came from history, and I feel that often we are losing a lot of the values and morals which we once had.

By the way, I’m a 21 year old Ms.

Wow! This conversation has really exploded!

@ Rosanna – I don’t entirely agree with what you said, but I very much like what you said. Where I’m coming from is that living a LIFETIME doesn’t particularly impress me. It certainly doesn’t impress me to the point that I would reflect some sort of admiration in a person’s title. The closest parallel I can draw from is the idea of congratulating a pregnant woman before you know whether the pregnancy was an accident or if it was intentional. I would argue that an accident deserves no congratulations, but the planned pregnancy does deserve congratulations. Similarly with titles, if you go to school and get a PhD – that’s a different story; that I respect. I WILL call you doctor. But if you simply had the benefit of being born before me, where is the merit?

@ Claudia – Punk kids like me, huh? I’ll take that as a compliment. As for my age (you wrote that I am ‘obviously’ young), I’m 30 – so I’ll let you decide if that makes me young or old. I don’t find myself in agreement with many of the sweeping generalizations that you made (things like: “They have the experience we seek”, “They are wiser”, “They long for those days when you could leave your door unlocked…”).

@ David – Well stated!

I think the idea of questioning societal structures that entitle automatic respect is downright necessary. Also, questioning things like this may be the first step to getting a system in place that is more useful/pragmatic/unoffensive. As an example, take a look at the metric system; that was designed because the old system (U.S. Customary – which originated in England) was arbitrary and outdated. In the U.S. system some of the names make sense, others don’t; some of the abbreviations make sense, others don’t; and the conversion numbers aren’t particularly memorable. Now, our title system is certainly less complex than our measuring system, but the same is true. The names and abbreviations don’t particularly make sense.

I’m ready for something new!

Something about the word “Ms.” just creeps me out. It has strong ties to the radical feminists and therefore can project a negative stereotype on women that aren’t radical feminists. I also understand that some women don’t want their marital status associated with their titles. So really there isn’t a good solution to this problem as far as I’m concerned. But overall I say we should stick with our past traditions and values.

As terms go, “bitter” is not a word which accurately describes people who prefer equality. However, bitter would describe those who don’t.

I often tell people that those ladies who use the term Ms. don’t want you to know if they’re married or not. Why hide that you are married or single?

Why indeed. So why use Mister for every male, regardless if he married or unmarried?

It’s kinda wierd the way people with the most biases are blind to them… Perhaps stupid people are just jealous that feminists have a brain and notice these things?

Okay, okay. The meanings are a little weird, but they are the “proper” way of addressing people. If we don’t address this way (such as when conducting business), how will we address them if they don’t want to be called by their first name? Listen, if the meaning offends you, then you can tell people when they talk to you to not call you that. But all in all, I think we should keep it.

I guess I’m just old-fashioned (although I am only 22) but I am quite proud of my Mrs. For me it was part of the joy of getting married.

Please notice that your husband was not overjoyed at the prospect of getting married.

It’s a joke, lighten up!!

ow help im laughing and blushign

Why not simply a genderless honorific that can be applied to anyone to show respect?

Ian, will you marry me?
Kidding… but I do love your logic. There are so many insightful comments (props to Tom, the Exalted and others), but I couldn’t afford the hours you calculated to read and respond to all of them. However, my contribution is simple; Listen, speak and behave in a respectful manner. That does not necessitate the use of Ms., Mrs., Mr., Master or Miss.

When heirarchy is the rule (i.e. a military environment) there are clear advantages for using a title based honorific, which is a living structural dialogue based on bona fide acknowledgement of rank and responsibility, not an assumption based on gender and/or marital status, which is the case with the ‘honorifics’ being discussed here.

Our culture does generally endorse academic and political recognition; calling out our physicians as ‘Doctor X’, representatives as ‘Senator X’ etc.; and I can’t imagine that Joe the Plumber would walk up to the President and say “Hey Barack, how’s it goin’?” Some distinctions in titles/roles are relevant, but in order to have a democratic dialogue, we really do have to take our discussion to a level of mutual respect, be it with our kids, clients, bosses, parents or service staff at any establishment with whom we do business. I work with PhDs as well as other academics, and although I do admire and acknowledge their accomplishments and knowledge, I hold myself to the same standards of personhood and accountability. The sagest among people know to give.. and expect.. respect even from children.

Referring to someone, a woman especially, by a prefix that you pull out of a hat based on the premise of courtesy and possibly education, to me only implies a di disconnect.. it means that the addressor (you) and you do not actually know the individual.In the professional realm I do my best to address people by their NAME, and include their credentials in literature and other instances where that may be appropriate. And it may seem fairly marginal to most, but using titles such as ‘Mr.’, ‘Ms.’ etc. also can become delicate for those individuals without traditional gender identities. Not to be flippant, but who cares? For example, what if the name of the person you are addressing has a non-specific gender, and you do not know this person (Chris Jones)? Why would you risk embarrassment/offense by making an assumption? Why wouldn’t you address that person as an individual… Chris Jones. To me, that is respectful. That is who you really are, and addressing you by your name alone does not detract from my acknowledgement and respect of and for you. Unless you know someone, a gender prefix really is an assumption.

The language surrounding the manner in which a person is addressed, as well as the context, the intent and the tone are all revealed ultimately. When I receive a letter in the mail addressed to ‘Ms. Laura R***’, I feel the distinct opposite of honor; I feel anonymous. I know that whomever has addressed me does not know me, and is trying to sell me something based on demographics. I rather think that Mr. Ms. Miss and Missus.. come to be interpreted as insincere and impersonal… a marketing ploy made to appear the companie’s deference (i.e. business).

I do give a nod to the concept of using language to convey honor amongst us, but I also know that words are alive, and that this manner of inserting civility in our discourse should come to its end. Let’s arrive at a new vernacular. Let’s address one another in a manner that assumes nothing and everything until we come up with something better, like our given names. My identity is not hinged on Mrs, Ms or Miss anything. I am who I am: the same Laura I was as a child and the same one I’ll be at my death.

Where the gender of the recipient, by birth, assignment, reassignment, or preference is either not known, or of no immediate interest may I suggest this following form:
Dear Mx Soanso.

I think titles are impersonal and old fashioned,the only reason they are used are because people like to feel important. Its a way to stamp authority on others and demand respect.

I once worked in England in a Department Store, the floor manager expected to be called ‘Mrs ….’ however, addressed me by my first name. I found the injustice insulting and felt it created a class system. It felt very similar to the adage that a child should respect their elders. And as all school children address theirs teachers by a title and last name this just proves my point. In saying that, I think schools really are the only acceptable place for these titles to be used as teachers do deserve and need the classrooms respect. This is a sure fire way to stamp a little authority on a class and gain that respect, having a title is impersonal and therefore it creates a boundary.

The only other areas where titles have a place can be when corresponding via email, sometimes it assists in knowing if a businesss contact is male or female. Lastly, it helps if you don’t know someones first name but, know their last ‘ Hello Mrs Smith’!

FOR 89 YEARS FRIENDS HAVE USED MY NICNAME “TETO”. NOW I RECEIVE FREE LABLES SAYING “MR. TETO”. THAT WOULD BE JUST FINE IF I WERE A MAN BUT I AM NOT! ! !
THERE’S AN OLD SONG THAT SAYS IT ALL, “LET’S CALL THE WHOLE THING OFF”.

Heyyy…now I can connect why we used to address our teachers at school as Miss.

@Naomi

After reading YOUR comments, it made me think about how ridiculous it is to worry about maintaining something like Mr. and Mrs. when most people can’t speak or, as in your case, write properly. Simply horrible grammar. Maybe you should have focused more on your education and less on how “morally sound” our country is…

I AM A MS

I agree that keeping honorifics is not bad. I do believe that it shows respect to ourselves and to others. Since we are all equal should we not respect each other equally? I do understand the arguement about the honorifics for women and I would be fine if we chose just one like Ms. for example. Those who do not agree I understand but I find it refreshing and for me personally it helps me feel as if I am equal to the person who is addressing me. I would rather people use an honorific instead of trying to jump into a first name basis right off the start. For me, at least, I don’t like it when people assume an intemacy with me that they don’t have yet.

My next formal letter is gonna start with;
‘Dear Maegester,’ lol

“A kept woman of a married man”?
O.o
WHAT THE HECK?! And here I thought adressing someone as Miss or Mrs. was a GOOD thing!

If Mr stands for Master, why is its plural form Messrs (Messieurs) instead of something else (MM perhaps, Mrs being already taken)?

Long Post Warning

There are a lot of opinions, and I don’t know if this has been mentioned:

1. Currently, proper etiquette demands that we (being everyone regardless of age) address all adults or anyone in any formal (e.g. business) situation as one of Mr., Mrs., Ms., (Miss) or Mz. (still “Miss” or “Mizz”, somehow the “z” makes it more formal and is the one most typically used for application to any woman) as appropriate *unless* they have asked us to refer to them in some other manner (typically by first name). 2. As addendum, if one knows of any titles held (i.e. doctorate, knighthood, nobility, etc and military commissions, but only in certain formal situations), it is considered respectful to replace the “common” title with the highest title held (except for JD’s who often prefer the former). In some situations it would be considered disrespectful to defer to the “common” title (e.g. addressing a King as “Mr.”). 3. As a further note, to item 2, in the USA it is not compulsory to address a person by their highest held title (I believe this only applies to US citizens addressing other US citizens), although rule 1 is still in effect. However, people in the USA often will follow rule 2 out of courtesy.

Knowing that:

Re 1: This is usually why people will say “Just call me Jim, Mr. Smith is my father”; this is also why I am flustered when the people at Panera ask for my first name.

Re 3: In short, there is a rule 3, but there isn’t; sigh. However, this is a throw-back to one of the formative values of the United States to preserve equality and is the reason why it is not compulsory. However, since most people opt for the additional formality one can expect for another person to be offended by a declension to refer to the higher title. If one does wish to avoid using titles, it might be wise to ask permission before-hand and state your reasons.

That said, my opinion is to keep the formality of Mr. and Ms.. As this etiquette has been pervasive in our culture, its utilization demonstrates respect for the other individual (at the very least as a person). This accomplishes both making the other person feel happier as well as enticing them to offer you the same respect. I think that’s an ethical win-win

This article just explains where the terms are originally derived, not its actual meaning. Today in modern society, they’re just used as honorifics to give a degree of respect. It doesn’t mean that you’re lowering yourself to them (sounds dirty!). Seriously though, it’s like the Japanese suffixes of -san and whatnot. totally adorable.

One thing I have found in working in customer service for several years, and just dwelling in society at large, is that it is not just what you say but how you say it that is important. I agree with using terms like mister, missus, etc, when appropriate, especially in business. And if a person has earned a title, such as “Doctor,” please address them as such. But I would like to add that I’ve heard people use the terms sir and ma’am in very condescending tones and I’ve heard people address others in casual, familiar terms with politeness and respect. Regardless of how you address someone, do so with the same respect you would want to receive. That’s my two cents’ worth.

Miss Naomi is 100% correct. Titles should always, always, always be used. Whether the person is an 18 year old serving U at McDonald’s or an Elderly person at the store. “mr”, “mrs”, “dr”, “ms”…some type of title must be used. I never refer to anyone without a title in front of their name, first or last name….even my siblings. The other person that is completely correct is Miss Katie: the most offensive thing about today is that peoples get so easily and constantly offended about every little thing!

if ms is referred to an umarried woman than then what do you call a divorced woman?

Liked the comment offered earlier: …one does not catch a man, unless they are falling. One catches fish.
Here’s another (seen on a bumper sticker): Feminism is the radical notion that women are people.
Most types of forms used to obtain demographic information present an option to choose for title. I make a choice not to complete that item.
I was uncomfortable with the term Ms when it first began to be used. Now it doesn’t really matter much to me.
What I find interesting is the general understanding of the use Dr. When I refer to “my doctor”, most people assume I mean physician, but I actually could be referring to my psycholgist.

Mistress Naomi, I beg your pardon, ma’am, but pray, whom art thou , with so much hatred at heart, waging war against, mistress?

to avoid discrimination of women a single title should be used for all, married or not, when it is so in case of a man why not in case of a woman

Ditto on what Ms. Naomi said

This never made sense to me. it continues to do so. Or not do so. Whatever. I think we should just go back to Latin.

way 2 formal………..not my style…

Honorifics are only a small part of our language that is increasingly becoming larger and less formal. Formal can be used or not. The origin of the word does not have to influence your usage, just your intent. In a business where I meet over one hundred people a day, I use the names for some and hello as a greeting for others. Finally, some I just nod and pass on. To me, Honorifics are for presentation. No insult need be taken from any use of an Honorific unless it is used in sarcasm. In a complex language, intent is the guideline.

Leave us not delve nor plumb the horrors of English English, after all what do they know? This is America Sirs, America, not Jolly Old you know.

And so what is the current realities regarding “mistress”? Well it still means “a kept woman of a married man” to be sure, a “courtesan” for those in the upper social orders, and a “promiscuous adult female foundling” for those not so socially aspiring. In the current state of affairs, if you will, of the American younger set one finds that “mistress” would still be an appropriate appellation provided one expanded the fundamental definition of “a kept woman of a married man”. “mistress” could include
“a kept woman of a unmarried man”, a “a unkept woman of a married man”, a “a unkept woman of a unmarried man”, a “a kept or unkept woman of a unmarried or married man”, to wit a “random concubine with lingering tendencies”.

Thus one would equate for modern times “mistress” as a deserved and earned honrific equating to “a random concubine with lingering tendencies”. This should clear up the matter and settle American disputations on the subject as it is fully descriptive of life style for those so disposed.

I strongly dislike the term Ms.
I will stay with Miss or Mrs

“Ms” is not an abbreviation for anything, so it should never have a period next to it — it should not be written “Ms.” but instead just upper case M and lower case s.

My complaint is that far too often there is a disregard for formal english language in a professional setting. Too often I see letters, proposals, etc. addressed “Dear Peter” or “Dear Susan”, or even worse, the “Dear” is dropped altogether. It does not matter the length of the relationship, it should remain professional.
Casual “golfing buddy” and “texting” language has crept too far into business writing. It is particularly sad that principals and owners of businesses accept this as Ok.

I don’t view “Mr.,” “Mrs.,” “Miss,” and “Ms.” as terms of respect. They are labels. If anything, I think labeling someone is DISrespectful.

Personally, I don’t want someone to make assumptions about me based on my gender or marital status; I don’t want to be judged by a label. Similarly, I don’t want people to *judge me* to determine whether I’m a Mrs., Ms., or Miss! Even if the terms *were* universally considered respectful, there are many who would traditionally be titled “Mr.” or “Mrs.” who do NOT deserve respect.

Traditions are fantastic when they provide a sense of unity, agreement, and shared history. However, when a tradition causes more discord & division than unity, how valuable can it really be?

But that’s just my opinion. And, for the record, I don’t see the need to kill a turkey on Thanksgiving, either. I’d rather save a turkey & eat tofurky. ; )

In 2011, the proper term is “Dude!”

Keep it the way it is. It is not disrespectful to recognize if a woman is married or not, it is just recognizing a fact. I say keep the titles and show respect to all equally.

Perfect bit of courtesy. Interesting to know. No more Mrs.

Funny, and interesting.
The thing is, you do not need to mention any type of honorifics to give honor to anyone….they all can be used in different contexts and yet, mean something completely different.

So respect and honor and all of that which most people want, but few deserve due to their acts and behavior, actually can be paid or expressed in million different ways, not?

I don’t think keeping or rejecting these titles has anything to do, I’ll say globally and in 2011, with bitterness, feminism, surety, or turkeys at Thanksgiving. That’s all a bit ridiculous. It also annoys me, as an English teacher, to read comments on a dictionary website which clearly aren’t proofread for spelling and clarity. I’m more worried about the trend of lazy writing/writers in our society then I am about being called “Mrs.” vs. “Ms.” But I digress.

In terms of using these honorifics to represent respect-as, for example, for “elders”-have we or haven’t we socially evolved yet, and come to believe that respect is indeed an attitude which is earned, not stemming from some imagined entitlement? Are honorifics really the only way to show respect for a generation older than our own, for women, for various degree holders, or for servicepersons?

I certainly don’t mind being called Ms., largely-if not solely-because it makes it easier to address, or to be addressed by, a stranger. But I’ve never felt social graces lacking when someone taps me on the shoulder or calls out, “Excuse me!” if I’ve dropped something, and wholly omits addressing me as Ms. or Miss. Formally, we probably no longer need honorifics; they are largely a matter of unspoken and accepted social convenience.

If, as a society, we want to begin to break down what represent linguistic social, cultural, economic, sexual and gender, (etc.) barriers, with more egalitarian language, why don’t we attempt learn and to call each other by our first names? We see this all the time in retail and food services, again for convenience, but why would it be less acceptable to ask each other for our first names before we engage? I’ll even go out on a fantastic limb here and look forward to a utopian day when we default to greetings like “friend” or “fellow.” That’s the happy fiction I for one wish I lived in.

Dixiesuzan:-

“Leave us not delve nor plumb the horrors of English English, after all what do they know?”

Let’s think now, what would the English know about the ENGLISH language?
Hmmm………

I like the usage of honorifics because of the respect they show. I’m rather pleased when a rep of a company calls me “Miss [Last Name]“. When a company calls me by my first name to give off that “we’re like your friends and family” feel, it only annoys me because they AREN’T my friends nor family.
However, if a friend or family member called me “Miss [Last Name]“, it sounds too formal. A few of my (much) older friends, and even my mother at times, will call me Miss Kara. I like that very much, because it still shows respect but is less formal.

I usually call my teachers “Ms.(name here)”, even if they are married because it usually comes out that way. I don’t say “Mrs.” that often. Plus it might be awkward if they’re not married…

I don’t get the joke… Anyway does it really matter? I don’t go around and say “fief, serf, or peasant” anymore…

Let’s continue to use these common courtesies in our society. We have swung the pendulum so far that we are almost out of ways that are considered polite. ‘Twas an interesting read though.

Maybe it’s a southern thing, such as yes ma’am, no sir, etc. I’ve caught myself correcting other children who do not use the same manners I’ve taught my child.
I’ve also taught my child to refer to all adults they meet as Ms. (first name) as a sign of respect, just as I do anyone older than my peers. Her friends refer to me as mom or Ms. (first name). I would be offended if a teenager referred to me by my first name alone. It’s not acceptable in our circle.

bravo…….interesting really

Hello friend! I love your comments “just call me hello”. You have some interesting ideas.

I have a question for the people who like the use of “Miss” and “Mrs.”. What is the reason, in your view, for a female needing to give her marital status but not the male? (If both women and men were required to give their marital status then I would still ask a question regarding this but would ask why do we all need to give our marital status in the titles that people use.)

This request for people’s views on the subject is purely from curiousity as I cannot think of a rational reason for this. It seems as though it is continued because that is how it used to be done as opposed to there being a logical reason. This is not in any way attacking anyone’s views but I have always wondered why people have continued to use that.

NEVER, did I like the being referred to as a Mrs. I felt like I was owned by someone. Even though I am married, I prefer to be called by my name.

Older generation speaking here!

I think all societies have “titles” to show deference to both sexes. They all probably originate from a time when males dominated society. Does anyone even remember when women were referred to by their husband’s names? Mrs. John Smith… the horror!

Mr. and Ms. are a respectful way to address males and females regardless of their marital status, age, position, race, etc.

Naomi, people do not run “a muck”. They run amok or amuck.

I have been married for over thirty years and in all of that time I will say I have never liked the Mrs. in front of my name-whose business is it anyway? One way of addressing men, one way of addressing women.

I would prefer to remove such terminology – It is used as a tool of gender defining, which is an inherent problem itself.

Setting women beneath or under the Mr., as a Mrs. or Miss is precisely what keeps other sexist terms like Chairmen or Freshmen afloat.

These terms lump women together into a group beneath men or with men. No man would want to be called a Freshwoman, so why should women want it the other way around? Because it’s the dominant form of being, and that’s why this wording is inept at describing a person.

I call all wimmin ‘Miss’ because it makes them feel young. I also say ‘young lady’ to them no matter how old or young. I haven’t been slapped yet.
Sometimes I call a widow – ‘the widder smith’ or whatever her name is – that one gets me in trouble.

I call some men ‘mister’ but others ‘jerk’ – I like ‘magister’ tho. Think I’ll use that one.

In Bengali language, Mr. and Mrs./Ms./Miss are Janab and Begum respectively.

In Hindi language: Shree and Shreemati
In Urdu: Muhtaram and Muhtarama
In Japanese: San for both case and used after the name.
In Bahasa Malaysia: Seri for man.

In defense of Naomi ~ Regardless of what she “meant” what she said was “bitter young feminist”. This does not say that all feminists are young and bitter, but that some of them are and those are the ones to whom she is referring.

Secondly, THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH A PATRIARCHIAL SOCIETY. Some (but not much) good has come from feminism, but most women today are sorely mislead as to how women were treated or viewed in the past. In addition, there has to be some way to identify a family line, so it has to be either patriarchal or matriarchal and since we are already a P society, we should stay that way, not change for the sake of change.

Thirdly, A woman, regardless of “honorifics” will always (as they should be) be viewed in terms of their Marital/Sexual status. For men this is not the case because our stati are irrelevant.

They are meant as a respectful way to address people most people don’t take them afencivly so no one really needs to make a big deal. Also infer if they look like some one who would be at all offended with a certain or lack of title call them by some thing that fits the sittuation. Lastly just because they r elderly does not mean they deserve any more respect than us young people (11) in general tit els based on gender or status can be perceived as rude by mid aged and younger people but maybe to older folks it is perceived more respectfully

In communication, context is clearly crucial. Mister, Mistress, Sir, Madam. The level of respect these honorific titles convey is, to a great extent, dependant on context. If I address a woman as madame, I am not necessarily referring to her as the female manager of a brothel. Sir does not mean I am under the impression the one I address is a peer of the realm. “Hey Mister!” often conveys a negative connotation in western english society, yet it may merely mean you are trying to get someone’s attention to tell him he forgot his cell phone on the restaurant table. And we see, then, that tone of voice and inflection can clarify a level of respect that is difficult to convey with limited context.

Formal address vs informal address, the age difference between people communicating, how long they’ve known each other, even the setting all affect how we address each other. That said, it is definitely becoming more common in english society to drop the honorifics in verbal communication. I suspect a factor may be that verbal communication is quicker to pick up on current trends than written communication. As the proliferation of informal written communication (texting, chat, online dialogue) outstrips more formal communication by sheer numbers, it is natural to see verbal communication well ahead on this trend from formal to informal.

A number of commenters also noted that Ms is a bit harder to like than either Mrs or Miss. This may indeed be because of its association with a hardline feminist agenda, but I also suspect there is something a bit more subtle at work here. I mean, who could really hate a word that is designed to protect a woman’s dignity, allowing her to be a little coy about revealing her marital status? Shouldn’t old fashioned chivalry applaud that effort? Yet it is that very conservative group that seems uncomfortable with the word. (I know, there are lots of reasons, and it’s not so simple, but bear with me here.) I suggest that a subtle, but serious, impediment to the acceptance of this word is its unfortunate sound. Sounds of words can be important – like tone of voice or inflection. MZZZZZZ! Ouch! Can you blame anyone for associating that word with an angry buzzing insect, or a flashing, cutting chainsaw? If the common pronunciation had been softer, like a slowly deflating tire, perhaps it may have avoided a little of the negative aspects of an implied association with an aggressive feminist agenda. (I’m not implying feminism is negative, I’m just linking the sound of the word to the more hardline feminists who have been shown in a negative light in popular media.). Though, I suppose the average parseltongue would just have thought of a snake and all it’s crafty Eden-honed skills.

Incidentally, I find the contributions of commenters from non-english cultures fascinating! They bring a richness to the dialogue – their viewpoints are interesting and illuminating because their cultural context is different.

Very few commenters addressed the depunctualization of the honorifics. The period after an abbreviation will exit common usage due in large part to the internet. The use of such punctuation other than a full stop at the end of a sentence plays havoc with spellcheck, particularly with mobile devices. The cultural influence of these devices, and online communication in general, is so overwhelming in western english society, that we will find whatever becomes inconvenient when using these will eventually be expunged from common usage altogether. Mr Mrs Ms Miss (and why should miss not have a period if it too is an abbreviation of mistress?) will become the norm.

I kind of like one contributor’s suggestion of M and F instead of Mr, Mrs. (See, that was the end of a sentence. Was that a full stop? Or are we to assume that the thought carries on. Too confusing to last much longer. especially in this age of texting and email, when adding capitals to the beginning of sentences is an extra effort some choose to ignore.) But given the shades of an Asimovian Foundational future that M and F conjure up, I suspect it will be centuries before we get there. And that would really only work in written communication. How would they be sound out loud – Em and Ef? M Jean Doe and F Jean Doe. Maybe. Certainly clarifies how to pronounce the given name.

Wow I did NOT no tht!!

hey there:

i`m not a english native speaker, can anyone explain to me the ” a kept woman of a married man” meaning.

thanks.

T .T OMG

>:(

:O

I think everyone should call everyone “My Lord” or “M’Lady”. I do it, like, all the time and it’s awesome.

It is apparent that the controversy regarding English honorifics will continue because of the etymological origin of these terms despite the fact that those antiquated definitions are passé. Because English is such a vibrant and adaptive language, I propose we abandon these controversial titles completely and derive contemporary nomenclature.
Perhaps an unbiased, ageless, asexual, marital-status-free reference based on our species, Homo sapien. In abreviated form Hn., Hs. or Ho. If one takes the effort to observe today’s fashion paraded in public worn by our youth, or perhaps peer into a mirror BEFORE leaving home, it is unlikely that many would find being refered to as “Ho” objectionable.
Perhaps the modern vernacular would serve us better. The honorific “Dude” seems ubiquitous enough. It has the advantage of being diminutive enough to forego abreviation, albeit “D.” would suffice for those unwilling to add three letters. “Dude” is also flexible enough to account for distinctions of gender, age, marital-status and perhaps many more distinguishing characteristics should society feel the need to be more divisive. Dude for males, Dudess for females, Dudette for pre-teen females, Dudah for pre-teen males. Old Dude and Antique (Classic?) Dudess for our elderly regardless of marital state, but for the pre-colonoscapy betrothed perhaps a prefix of partnered-, or paired-, or hitched- might suffice, but I’m sure society will derive its own varients.
This is merely something to ponder after having read the previous banter that Shakespeare no doubt would refer to as “much ado,” and with toungue firmly planted and remaining in cheek I bid you all “much adieu.”

What does it matter? Are there not more important civil injustices to be addressed? Whether I greet you as “Mrs. Doe,” or “Ms. Doe,” shouldn’t matter. My choice to address you with an honorific is simply that, my choice. You can resist change as much as possible, but change is imminent. Clothing styles change, music evolves, technology is developed, and like all other things, communication between people has changed dramatically. We can come to terms with these changes and grow with them, or we can fight it in a constant revolution.

There is no reason to distinguish between a married or single woman. Ms. is what I will always prefer and use for any woman when forced to use the titles. Otherwise, I don’t use the titles.

So we’ve established the point that some people want to have the honorific and some people don’t and some people want to change the honorific. Welcome to America, where we all think differently.

Personally, I use Mr and Ms in place of a first name. It helps distinguish between James, where it could be a first name, and Mr. James, where James is obviously the last name, except in cases where the last name is added, such as in Mr. James Smith. Saying Mr. James where James is the first name isn’t normal, but doesn’t sound unnatural.

To alot of people, the honorific is a term of respect, so when you are with those people, it is best to use it in that manner, or at least use them if you aren’t sure how the other person will take it, though you could probably make a good guess based on how they treat you (how they refer to you – last name, first name, honorifics included?). i.e. If you’re meeting with your new boss and he’s wearing a clean suit and tie, try using Mr.

I don’t know about how everyone views the Mrs. vs Miss vs Ms thing or what the general consensus is, but I’ve never been in a situation where I’ve had to really think about it (except in writing emails (same format as letters, which no one writes these days), in which Miss is used for young girls and Ms when in doubt). Maybe it’s just a feminist thing to care about the marital status thing – personally, I don’t really care. I don’t see how some women feel, what’s the word, distinguished/degraded (not an accurately descriptive word for it. idk what word to use here, and we’re on dictionary.com, lol). But then again, I’m not a woman. And just fyi for those of you saying we should apply Mr. to boys under 18… Exactly – I have been referred to as Mr under age 18.

It’s easier when the person you are addressing has a title, like Doctor or Professor, in which you can use Dr. or Prof. At the very least, let’s not get rid of those two, lol.

Someone earlier commented that Mr. is equivalent (or somewhat) to the Japanese “san”. No it isn’t. “san” can be applied to both genders. Most of the “untranslatables”, as I’ve heard them called, give the relation of the speaker to the person they are speaking to or about. e.g. “sensei” is along the lines of “professor” or “teacher” or “master” or “guide” or something like that (bad example, since this one can refer to a teacher who isn’t your teacher). “kun” refers to someone close to you (usually male, based on the contexts I’ve heard it in. And fyi, I’m talking about endings onto names.) Mister (Mr.) or Misses (Mrs) on the other hand, don’t say anything about your relation to that person. Based on the discussion in this comments section, it doesn’t look like they’ll ever have an agreed upon meaning either.

Naomi, as a sweet, old feminist (50 years old), I presume that you, as a traditional non-feminist woman, have received no education beyond what the law requires, rely solely on either your husband or father for your entire income, do not drive a car, do not own any real eastate property, and do not vote. No? Then you have a lot for which to be grateful.

Is it just me, or do others feel as awkward and self-conscious as I do when employing the term “Ms.”? It ALWAYS seems like I’m trying too hard to be appropriate, and the very sound of it does not flow well (admit it, the “m” and “z” sound combined lacks a certain grace and slows your speech).

Perhaps we could adopt the quaint, cute southern tradition wherein youth refer to adults as “Mr.” or “Miss” combined with just the first name, regardless of the marital status of the addressee. Do the same for adult to adult conversation, reverting to surnames instead? You get a more linguistically appealing sound, and any age-conscious twenty-something need no longer dread the transition from Miss to Ms. :p

I disagree with you all–to put it in short. Why can’t you understand that we must keep intact the use of Mr, Master, Mrs, Ms, Sir, Mum, Ph.D, Dr for all formal use. There is nothing racist or sexist about any of them, to say such is to be uterrly ignorant. If we cannot stay with the morals set down by our fathers and our father’s father the country’s done for.

Feminists, people who call everything say or done to the Negro race offensive, and people who are not polite, have no place in the English countries. Yes, Mr Just Call Me “Hello” we do need honorifics. So as I stated earlier, proper addressing is always right. And anyone who disagrees with anything I said is probably one of the listed persons above.

Sincerly, Yours Truly

Please allow me to correct some mis-information presented above: The term “Ms.” was not in use back in the 17th century. Its use became (sort of) widespread in the 1970’s.

Sorry, but “Ms.” came about in the late 1960s/early 1970s, not the 17th Century. Duh!

I think these titles will soon become obsolete. People use Mr. or Mrs. strictly as a formality, and there maybe alternate terms to address senior workers, bosses, and so on such as CEO or so.
It’s important to note that in parts of the world that were formerly colonized, these formalities are sometimes used with derogatory terms. The natives were supposed address British with Mr. or Mrs. formal terms to show respect (something that was never extended to the natives), and today in places like India, there will be terms deriving from Mr. or Mrs. to describe people with pompous attitudes and bad personalities.
Also, the younger generation might drop these titles. I absolutely hate it when I’m supposed to use Ms. before my name. It’s odd, archaic, and I if someone wants to address me formally in English, I would prefer if they use my job title or just last name. These terms makes me uncomfortable because they imply social status over another person.

I have read many books and periodicals dating back to the early 1800s and I have NEVER seen the use of Ms. before anywhere. Supposedly, it existed in England for a very short period of time, but counting it as being in “general usage since the 17th century” is preposterous. The only time it came in to REAL usage was in the 1970s with the women’s movement. Ms. has all but replaced Mrs. for the majority of English speaking females.

iq145:
Master would be the title that your “servants” would call you. (dont agree with slavery or servants)

And this article is indeed interesting. In the sense that I have to call my teachers “Ms. and Mr.” and calling my male teachers Mr. will indeed be wierd from now on. I wonder if they know the origin of Mr… *trails off in a.d.d. thought* Anyway… I kind of like the idea of someone calling me mistress, not in the sense that I’m a “mistress” but like, Governess or something. It’d be kind of cool.

@Naomi- If it weren’t for the “bitter young feminists,” you would not be even writing this post. So why don’t you show some respect (as you are so worried the society is going down the toilet because some people can’t use prefixes), and call them *misses* bitter young feminists?

Regardless of its history, I think that Mr. and Ms. (or whatever title a person wishes to be called) is a symbol respecting position or age. Just because I show respect for someone doesn’t mean that I am in any way degraded. Everyone has value, children and adults alike and I feel respected when people call me what I want them to call me. My students call me Mrs., my colleagues call me by my first name, my children call me mom and my family has pet names for me. I would never allow my students to call me my by the name my brother has for me and it would be weird for my family to call me Mrs. Whatever. In the same vein, I make it a point to call people by what they prefer to be called, even if I wouldn’t choose to be called that myself. I also don’t think that there is necessarily anything wrong with having a certain amount of distance between me and my students. I can be professional but not entirely removed emotionally and I can still be an influence for good in their lives if they refer to me by Mrs. Whatever.

So . . . how does this make you laugh out loud or blush? o_o

Moreover, I have read your comment, Naomi, and I agree with you on the first paragraph. HOWEVER, I still dislike the fact that Mr. stands for ‘master’. That doesn’t mean I won’t respect my elders. Of course I will continue with honor and respect. It’s just that throughout our history and still today, men have been treated at a higher level than women, and that is something I don’t understand. Aren’t we all equal, and if not, why?

Perhaps I will figure out the answers to this in the future, or maybe now. My prediction is because of evolution or just the way we’re made. I don’t know this for sure, though.

i live in a beautiful town in the south with a few military installations. forget Mr. people actually call me “Sir”. this makes me feel old (which i am). i tell them that i am not in the military (like my father was, but i called him daddy) nor have i been knighted (although i lived in england for a while). i tell them to call me “dude”. it makes them smile. works for me.

I am 16, so I call adults Miss or Mr. and then their first name, as that shows respect while still being more familiar than Ms./Mr. and a last name. So, if Jane Smith was a family friend, I would say “Hi Miss Jane. What time is it?”

If I don’t know someone’s name, I typically call them sir or ma’am if they are older and don’t really call people my own age anything. If I was in a public area talking to Jane Smith, an older stranger, I’d say “Ma’am, what time is it?” If I was talking to Jane Smith, a person my own age in the hall, I’d say “Hey, do you know what time it is?”

I use Ms. rather than Miss or Mrs., though, for teachers and such. If Jane Smith was my teacher, I’d say “Ms. Smith, what time is it?”

My generation appears to be against anything that makes them feel inferior or that honours authority in any way. I think this is a shame. In Japan one is referred to as “san” regardless of gender or position in life. This simple honourific has forged and sustained a cohesiveness within Japanese society, and it is something I believe the human race as a whole could learn from.

Now I do not particularly buy the whole “show respect because this person is older”. Respect must be earned. However, how do you know whether or not it is acceptable to respect a certain person when you first meet him/her? For this reason I begin most relationships with the honourific Mr or Ms. Until that person proves unworthy of my respect (or we become closer, and formalities cease) this title shall remain. Or if they feel uncomfortable with it. I do this simply because this is how I hope to be treated when I enter the real world.

In my humble, humble opinion, respect should be a universal language; honourifics and other titles should be one amongst many other components of it.

Figures… let’s get rid of the master/slave mentality unless you’re okay with a woman being a master. I mean out of the two genders, women are clearly the best. Not only can we be split in 2 during child birth, but we usually end up raising our husbands &/or boyfriends.. I wouldn’t mind being called Master… Or Mistress. BDSM is a favorite past time of mine, & yes ladies, it’s usually married men that obey my commands. Deal with it. If you want to stay slaves, you’re in the right position for it.
After all, traditions are made by old men to keep others under control.. Keep your traditions, I’ll stick to truth, honor and integrity. Not to mention, most of the “men” I meet, are more like little grown up wuss bags, so what mister deserves my respect? Deff not Mister Prez.. he’s even more worthless than my exhusband. 3:p

LADIES: Throw away tradition and make your own. Don’t let MEN dictate how you live your lives anymore. It’s 2011. You need to stand for something or fall for THEIR bull****.

You know of which I speak.

Well this is embarassing! Hahaha!

:@

By the way, I’ve read a few more comments, and I find it amusing that most of the men agree with Naomi, but not a lot of women. Or . . . maybe it’s the other way around . . .

Naomi, if you’re wondering why I’m not addressing you as ‘Mrs.’ or ‘Ms.’, it’s because I don’t know if your married. Also, although it is a girl name, I don’t know if you are a female or a male. Please accept my apology for being rude, but maybe you should choose better vocabulary for your ’speech’ before you post it on the web, because let me tell you something. Alot of women are getting provoked from the word “feminist”. Plus, does this mean every young woman in the world is bitter just because of what she decides?! I think not. We are all different, but connected at the same time.
. . . . Okay, I’m done. I know it was an outrage, and although I didn’t heed you, Naomi, I am still going to stick with it. Understand, human?

I’m speaking here as a translator of Chinese to English (grew up in US in an English-only background).

I’ve always hated the English honorific system. When I was young, I used to make a stink with the school about calling my teachers Mr. and Mrs. Yeah, I was one of those really annoying kids who thought he was making a point (I also graduated 2 years early, so I kinda feel vindicated, but I happily admit it was obnoxious as all get-out). And I happily come down on the side of the “feminists” and “communists” who complain about the origins of the “Mister” and the sexism inherent in “Mrs.” vs. “Miss”.

But learning Chinese has given me a new perspective on honorifics. They have a vastly more complex system, that of course used to be as cumbersome and confusing and discriminatory as the ancient English system, but after the Communists took over, they made some drastic (and pretty tragic, in some cases) changes to the social fabric of the country, one of the most interesting of which was 30 years of propaganda demonizing honorifics that denote social status, class, and court rank. 40 years ago, when the Cultural Revolution was in full swing, people were mobbed to death for using terms like “Lord” or “Master”. Politics aside, it’s not hard to see how that might end up changing language.

Anyway, what’s left is a system in which honorifics are actually the default setting for social interaction. Chinese names are just like Western names, with a “first” and “last” name (the order is reversed), but the use of the first name is traditionally limited to very intimate friends and family. So in all but the most informal settings (say, at a bar), when you interact with someone, you address them as Family Name + Honorific. And honorifics typically come from two places – words for relatives and words for jobs.

Let’s take your average Mr. or Mrs. Zhou (pronounced “Joe”) and look at how he’d be addressed in different situations.

If Zhou is a teacher, you’d call him Teacher Zhou. The word for teacher breaks down as “elder expert”, and can also be used for editors, translators, and directors of creative projects.

If Zhou is the manager of a company or department, you call him/her “Manager Zhou” or “Boss Zhou”.

If Zhou is a mechanic, taxi driver, computer technician, or really any kind of skilled profession that requires you to work with your hands, you call him/her “Master Zhou”. The word for “master” in this context breaks down as “expert handler”. This is what I call the trash man, the guy who fixes my air conditioner, the cooks at the restaurant, etc.

If Zhou is an mid-40’s woman you meet in the street, you’d call her “Aunt Zhou”. If Zhou is a woman under 40, and you’re younger than her, you’d call her “Older Sister Zhou”.
If Zhou is a woman (and I’m just guessing at the age here, there’s no hard line) under 35, and you’re older, you’d call her “Little Sister Zhou”.
If Zhou is 50-ish, and a woman, “Mother Zhou”. 65+ and she becomes “Grandma Zhou” or “Old Zhou”.

The same rule pretty much applies to men, except the terms become male.

The only time you use the words for “Mister” and “Missus” are in situations when someone’s age, status, job, or income are irrelevant or unknowable. And those situations are rare. About the only people who call me “Mister” are waiters.

Now I’ll grant that such a system is unwieldy at times, but for me, it’s redeemed the idea of honorifics. Yeah, a system like the Chinese one can be abused, but facetious people will find a way to do that with any system. There’s nothing inherently rude about it. And I think that if we in English insist on using a system of honorifics, we may as well try to introduce some that aren’t as discriminatory as the ones we have now. It would be much more pleasant for me if I didn’t have to guess whether a woman was married when I meet her.

@Matt:
How can Mr. (for a male) or Ms. (for a female) fall under all titles being “misleading, rather than illuminating”?

First, I have no problem with any of the honorific titles, so going off topic a little in response to someone else.
@Matt
You we’re in favor about dropping all titles, including “Dr.” I have friends pursuing Ph.D’s, JD’s, MD’s, and other doctoral degrees. One can feel however they like about their research and work and whether or not they’re credible. You may feel Dr. Schlesinger is not credible enough as a marriage counselor, and that’s fine. I’ve felt that way myself about some who hold doctorates. But the time, money and frustrations my friends put into their education, they deserve the “Dr.” title when they’re finished. They worked for it. Even Dr. Schlesinger earned her title through her doctoral research, regardless of the credibility of her marriage advice. I’m sure if you were pursuing a doctoral degree, you’d want the title. “Dr.”should never be dropped, ever.

You forgot the relatively new-comers from French: Madam, Mam, Ma’am.

Why so many titles for women and just one for men. Not fair, señor.

Maybe it’s because all of the Master’s were sleeping with their Governesses. It would kind of be like sleeping with a housekeeper…

Sorry Maria.

Jon The Limey – A happenstance of history really, mere name calling, the English and the ENGLISH language. It’s lucky they can even spell it, English. The English are always miss spelling things.

“Honour” for good old American “honor”, “colour” for the proper American and correct “color”. The English keep pitching in extra vowels just to confuse things. Rather like the French there, going mad with vowels in a deliberate attempt to confuse foreign speakers and spellers. Tacked in vowels, shoe-horned in vowels, little vowels, big vowels, parades of vowels when one would do quite well. Ah the French can do it, and the poor English just copy them in a minor sort of way. Too subdued, don’t get into the emotional vowel pitching fervor which the semi-literate French have mastered. All as a cover for poor spelling skills I suspect.

Besides, the English really should be speaking and writing Anglo-Saxon. A kind of German with Anglo-ese intermingled in a hodgepodge broth of linquistic nightmare coupled to individualistic inventive spelling. Add to this French speaking crazed Norsemen from Normandy in 1066 and its all over with honest spelling in England. Have you ever tried reading “Beowulf” ? Virtually unintelligible with the worst spelling I ever saw.

America, shielded from this anarchy of language by the Atlantic ocean, has been singularly blessed with solid spelling and proper AMERICAN English. Thus we are willing to aid our English cousins when they go astray as long as they are willing to learn. Desire comes before knowledge you know.

this is the only sensible site we are allowed to view in office i wish dictionary posts hotwords everyday rather than wait for a couple days before getting a new one,like this site a lot

Can we please just start calling everyone “comrade”? Much simpler.

I prefer to use the following terms when speaking to young women with whom I have not yet developed a personal relationship:

Sweetie
Pumpkin
Baby
Sweetheart

Once I have established a personal relationship, I utilize the following terms:

Honey
Boo
Kitten

Women with whom I no longer associate are referred to simply as “My ex, (insert name here).”

Women beyond my acceptable dating age-range are not referred to in any terms as they are largely invisible to me. The same policy applies to women who take exception to the system I have outlined.

Women are always trying to become more like men. If men were given titles that reflected their marital status and women just always had the same one they would think that was unfair. How about we forget about gender and just respectfully call everyone “Master”. Women are becoming so much like men anyway let’s just make them honorary men.

I BELIEVE THAT it’s a bit odd to have one general term for Mr. highly recognised term that is excluding marital status , underlying that individualism about the person IN CONTRAST TO WHATEVER CONCEPTS UPTHERE REGARDING WOMEN ACCORDING TO MARITAL STATUS OR EVENHAVIN DISHONORABLE ETYMOLOGICAL , PERIODIC USE OF THEM……DUDE IT’S ALL LINGUSTIC RACISM NEURO LINGUISTIC PROGRAMMING OF FEMININE TITLES THAT HAVE ROOTS TO IMMORALITY AND MARITAL STATUS DIMINISHING INDIVIDUALISM AND HIGH MORAL ESSENCE OF WOMANHOOD BY THESE DEEP STEREOTYPES IN SOCIETY , FORMING AND CONTRIBUTING IN EVERYTHING EVEN IN LANGUAGE ,THIS ARTICLE AND THE SUBLIMINAL LINGUISTIC DANGEROUS STEREOTYPICAL MASSAGES YOU ALL MUST BE AWARE OF . YOURS FAITHFULLY , A THINKER

Cool

i prefer using the terms

Sweetie
Pumpkin
Baby
Sweetheart
i know stupid but for real 2day is differnt from back thenb 2day is the real world thanks for letting me typed ths is just like my 2 home

I guess it’s just me, but once I got married I MUCH prefer being called “Mrs” instead of “Ms”. I guess I like the distinction.

I can’t help but wonder, though, why we even have “Ms” because it sounds almost identical to “Miss” to me. I prefer the sound of the latter, as well. *shrug*

I remember reading a piece written by an Englishman in the 19th century. He was horrified that in the U.S. no one would bow. The fact that this honored and respected action showing ones betters respect was used in England meant that he could not figure out social status in the U.S. The horrific handshake was all that was used, this base and crass action meant that no one held rank. His nearly 15 page rant is rather humorous to me, especially coming from the 20/21 centuries. But I use that tale as a jumping off point, we don’t bow to each other anymore. Why must we use the same honored and respected names? I’m 28 and recently divorced. I went from Miss at 24 to Mrs at 25 and now Ms at 28. My now ex-husband went from Mr at 24 to Mr at 25 to Mr at 28. I didn’t mind the Miss, nor the Mrs, but the Ms is very annoying. To the point that I won’t allow anyone to refer to me in that manner. The way most people use the term Ms is insulting and crass to say the least. Like I somehow insulted them by no longer being married. The fact that Miss, Mrs and Ms are from the same root word does not stop the verbal connotations from changing. If Mr comes from Master, and is used for all age groups, and Miss, Mrs and Ms come from Mistress (something I’ve known for a while) pick one and use it for all age groups. My marital or virginal status should be none of your concern!

This article is interesting.

When I was in high school a few years ago, everone addressed the teachers by miss or sir, out of respect (from what I hear from the younger students, they still do).

I don’t really believe it is a feminist issue for what they stand for. The past is the past. Now it’s more like a honourary prefix (like the Japanese use).

I do agree that it confuses me to calll people miss. or mrs. so I tend to stick to Mrs. unless I am 100% sure she is married.

I agree with the above poster who said that people should be addressed by Mr/Ms when conducting business. As for minors under 18, why should they be afforded less courtesy? I took my son to the bank to conduct business for his bank account and I was very pleased when the rep called him Mr. (LastName).

I usually introduce myself as Ms. when conducting my business and Mrs. when conducting family or husband’s business.

dis generation doesnt care bout the origin of mr. & n mrs.
and 2 rob, callin a girl sweetheart the 1st time u meet isnt gonna help u develop a “personal relationship” with them

Whoa!!

Nice Job!

WoW, I never knew That.

Naomi, you need to run along home, little girl, so yo mastuh can beat the feces out of you for not cooking the massuh’s dinner properly.

I dont understand it. what is so funny?

the slow one now will later be fast.

THAT IS OBVIOUS

@ Jarrett – Comrade sounds communist…which by the way that has never worked and only serves to create a greater distinction between the wealthy and impoverished. It sounds nice on paper, but is horrific in practice…just ask any non-party member or honest party member who has lived through it.

hello

The entries above are quite articulate and well-written. However, I’m reading them on a dictionary site. Doesn’t spelling matter? ‘a muck’ is one word – ‘amuck’.

Firstly, language is organic and constantly changes, so the previous meaning of words is never relevant to their appropriate use today. When I was young, I was conscious that ’sir’ was used in disciplined groups (army, police) to show deference to a superior, and I would never use it. Now that I am old, I often call much younger men ’sir’ to express my respect for an equal, because I don’t know their name.

Secondly, although men and women should be treated with equal respect and have equal rights under the law, they are biologically rather different and in most human societies have had completely different roles. Although we are obsessed with equality right now, this fashion will likely disappear and be replaced when (most) men and women freely choose to be more ‘masculine’ or ‘feminine’ in order to express who they truly are. Therefore, honorific titles, like other customs, will probably reflect the special, and preferred role of each sex.

@Dixiesusan – unless you are being completely ironic I suggest that you pick up a histoy text, and also remember us Canucks also use the “correct” spelling of the British

At 24 years old, I have spent my entire life referring to my elders as “Mr” “Mrs” or “Sir” Ma’m”. Even down to calling my parents “Sir” “Ma’m” when addressed with yes/no questions. In my opinion it has nothing to do with feminist issues. Nor your intelligence level if you have something to prove. It’s showing respect for some one older and wiser than you. And unless they lived in cave somewhere cut off from all human contact, someone older than you knows far more about the world than you do, and most likely can teach you something about it. To me, it boils down to this man/woman has lived their life with many disappointments, upsets, successes, moments of congratulations, and deep sorrow. This person most likely had hell thrown at them and came out swinging, managing to live through it to fight another day. They can offer advice your peers cannot. A life’s journey alone demands respect. So for that very reason I will continue to use those honorifics.

@Robert — I find the use of any of those vernaculars on a woman that is not you significant other more sexist and degrading than is you full out called me “Mistress” and demanded I be a housewife. Those are terms of endearment and should only be saved for women you are with. With the exception of “boo”. I believe that word should never be uttered. It’s in the same category as “pop” of words that grate my friggen nerves.

I agree with using just Ms for all women. It avoids accidental insults when using incorrect honorics.

I already knew that

@Jarrett: The problem with using the term “comrade” for all people is the fact that not all people consider others “comrades”. That’s on a level that is sometimes even too personal for others.

THEE best option that could be used – although it might seem silly – is to use the term “person” when referring to anyone, regardless of appearance. I say this because some females who seem like women/ladies/lasses/etc, are *not*, due to being non-gendered. We are a terribly small minority, but I promise you, there are individuals that exist whom have no gender, despite what their sex displays.

I try to keep a level head with people who refer to me as a Miss or a young lady, and simply tell them that my looks are deceiving because I am non-gendered, although I am a female. I would suggest that they refer to me as “person”, unless they prefer to use my name. That said, there will still be people out there who will refer to me as a Miss, no matter what, but my intuition tells me that there will be a day in the not-too-far future where there will be a universal term coined for all people that is not based on *status*, but rather *equality*, which is something that I, as an Aquarius, strive for.

Thanks so much for this article. I enjoyed reading it.

This is the dumbest article. Is it supposed to be some incredible revelation? Thanks for the intriguing etymological insight, Captain Obvious!

I agree wholeheartedly with Luther. Men should be refered to as Mr, women should be refered to as Ms. Simple.

Feminism is the radical notion that women are people.

From what I have known the majority of my life is that calling someone by his or her martial status is respectful and that anything less is disrespectful unless the lady or gentleman is familiar and doesn’t mind (such as a step-parent or older friend). Most of us hardly ever regard our aunts or uncles and such without giving their relation title (Aunt Adela, Grandpa Calvan)

I’m old fashioned and prefer Mrs. and its pronunciation of missus.

every thing and all the words and titles we used are changing so, in my point of view the important matter is what the words we use are really mean at this time and what we want to convey.

Mr., Mrs., Ms.: Let’s leave it off and move on. We’re a first name society now. The only time I feel comfortable being called Mr. is when a parent finds it important to help their children understand respect for their elders. Fair enough, I can handle that. But as soon as possible I want people calling me Keith. All are equal in the eyes of God.

Women as so fiercly independent anymore. I can not even extend a simple courtesy as offering my seat on a bus without them being offended.

I don’t think that using Mr., Mrs., Ms., Miss, sir, or ma’m in respectful ways is wrong or degrading in anyway. To me it doesn’t mean that person is old or better than others, it is just the way you address somebody without being rude or offending them. In an above comment somebody thought my parents’ generation did not enjoy being addressed in that way, yet here I am brought to do the very thing (s)he thought was dying. I think everyone will disagree about many topics, and that this is one of them. I don’t think that honorifics are misleading or obscuring, but I respect that other people believe differently.

There goes the neighborhood.

Naomi and Mr. Snavely well said, this comes to you from a well educated business woman.

Jeff, spoken like someone that critiques others and has probably never been called Mr. nor Dr. You probably know it all?!

To all the “SweetOldFeminist”s and the not so sweet, thank God I’m about your age and don’t feel that old. I’ve held down jobs since I was fourteen, I’ve achieved more than my two ex-husbands and have made triple or more their salaries. I’ve had more marriage proposals and I’m in no rush to accept any of them. Being in business, surrounded by other well educated and well mannered people, I expect a little courtesy as I give it in return (sadly some of my clients don’t have my degree of education, but I always use Mr. or Ms. until familiarity is established).

These honorifics are NOT too formal for our society, they’re a bit of courtesy, similar to NOT letting the door close if there is someone behind you!

So funny………………. actually I don’t understand

When in doubt, Ma’am and Sir always work

Let us follow Mr., Ms. to denote the gender difference. Let us not worry anybody is married or not.

I agree whit Naomi and yes we shod stick whit it.

I still think it’s weird to call my former teachers by their first names — instead of Mr. or Miss/Ms./Mrs. — and I’m 34! *chuckle*

The writer is full of baloney. The lesbianish “Ms.” was invented by feminists like Gloria Steinem in the 1970s and started getting forced on us big time in the 1980s. It did not exist in the 1700s. What a rewrite of history to suggest that it did. The proper way should be “Miss” if the woman’s maiden name is being used, whether or not she’s married. of course, Mrs would only go with a married name, not a maiden name. If marital status is unknown, one can simply use the woman’s full name. There’s no obligation to use the lesbianish term “Ms.”

I rather like the bitter young feminists. It’s the bitchy old traditionalists that bum me out.

@Ben My compliments on a well-balanced and perfectly argued response. I was about to write something with near-identical sentiments, so I am grateful that you saved me the trouble with your elegant comment. Peace out, Kuze hideo.

Robert,

NEVER call a woman that you do NOT have an intimate relationship with “baby” or “sweetie” or “pumpkin” and the like. It’s not appropriate and will only make you sound like a creep. The only men who are able to get away with calling a woman that are very old (70+). I would slap any man younger than that if he called be “baby”.

I’m with the group that suggests that Mr. and Mrs. are a way to honor married elders and Miss honors a single female elder. But I have heard one suggestion on the “original” origin not brought up yet: that Mrs. is a contraction for Mister’s , as in owned by the Mister. That is NOT how I think of it, but I heard it told as fact. Just passing it on as possibly factual …

True..same is the case with the word VILLAIN also.In the sixteenth century the just meant a person living in a VILLA ( a huge mansion). Later the meaning got changed and now VILLAIN is a cruel person.

Women don’t want men to treat them respectfully, or for them be gentleman(unless it’s more than equality) anymore…then they complain why they’re unfaithful.

Pretty soon no one will be allowed to speak, as if fear of every -word- could possibly offend someone. Sad times. :]

I have not fully formed an opinion either way on the subject but I find it interesting to note the use of honorifics in front of my own unisex name, and how redundant they are in practice. For example, after signing up to a telecommunications contract in person, in a shop, I receive the paper particulars by post, addressed to Mr. Devin (surname). I am female and I thought that was obvious to the sales representative. Will I contact the company and ask to have the mistake corrected? No. I don’t see the point. I don’t care much for gender categories as I view them as something more fluid. And it obviously has zero relevance to bureaucracy in this instance.

I believe the modern versions are … Man or Woman… but it takes a little effort to place. but it works. lol

Our American society is almost void of etiquette these days! Children of today haven’t the slightest modicum of it and I think its a disgrace!

There are over 400 comments to this article which attests to the gravity of etiquette these days and that this comment will never be read, but anyways. Just as a Southerner in the U.S., I, as a second generation “Korean-American” was raised with a great sense of etiquette, nay, a greater sense. I not only addressed my parents with the equivalent “Sir” or “Ma’am,” but I bowed to all my elders, and my younger sister never called me by my first name, but with an honorific “older brother” term. This in combination with my Army service has only bolstered my sense of etiquette. I, with all my heart, agree to continued usage of these honorifics.

Were it up to me, I would add bowing back into the American etiquette protocol which completely disappeared around the mid-19th century. A flame burns in me every time I address a civilian as “Sir” or “Ma’am” and they reply back with the “Oh, don’t call me that!” nonsense. I am only 29, but, if my generation and younger ones are not educated with proper etiquette, what will become of order and discipline in the near future? Goodness gracious!

I did not understand the joke in it

very nice and newwwww

I too would like to agree with Naomi. I couldn’t have said it better myself. Keeping the serenities of the past is a very well way of showing appreciation of not only what we lived for back then, but what we live for today.

Thank you Pn May for raising the need of titles to be inclusive of those who do not identify as either male or female.

I believe that the origins of words are interesting, but only that. Words in this day and age should be deconstructed on the basis of their current meanings and connotations. Therefore, it raises questions as to why there is the need for various tiles for females and not males.

I think it would be lovely if a generic term of respect could be developed that was devoid of reference to either assignment of gender, age or marital status. Any suggestions? (In addition to the already suggested ‘Person’ which is a little bland.)

Hmmm. If nothing else, its interesting to note that this, seemingly, simple subject appears to have touched a nerve. I love language. Creativity within it is usually a good idea, though infinitely more successful when the creative agent has good observational skills and the ability to communicate with a combination of awareness and subtlety! The vocabulary that pertains to this issue will ebb, flow and change no matter what blanket rules anyone tries to impose on it. That being said, my own proclivities on the issue are this: Use any combination of male/female respectful address that suits you, but in the Mr./Mrs-Miss-Ms debate, I fall firmly with the feminists (one, male or female, who simply desires and works toward equality of respectful treatment regardless of gender) in thinking that there should be a simplicity in counterpart terms. One word for men, Mr., and one for women, (in other cases, it has been my experience that a person usually identifies with one or the other, so let them set the usage) in my case, Ms. I am not against getting complicated. Life is complicated! If there were corresponding terms in use to distinguish whether a man was married or not or not telling, then we could just dive in and use them all, but there is not and if a man is always a man, “Mr.”, then a woman should have that same opportunity to be free of titles that billboard her relationship status. It just doesn’t make any sense to me to have otherwise than [an] equal [set of] terms. I am crazy about the man I am married to and love being his partner and mother of our son, but it DOES irritate me quite a lot when people ASSUME I am a Mrs. so-and-so. I am not. I am myself and I have a name. I have kept my own name (What could possibly be the purpose in changing it?) and MUCH prefer being addressed, what I consider neutrally (like ‘Mr.’), as Ms.

It was interesting to read about the abbreviations Mr. Mrs. and Ms. While Mr. is pronounced as Mister and Mrs. as Missus, how is Ms.pronounced?

First of all, Mike mate, You’re a legend. ‘My Lord’, or ‘M’Lady’, are definitely the terms that should be used, though i often just use Mofo or Hobag.
Second of all, Dixiesusan or whatever your name is, your an idiot ! You know what American English is? It is the English language, taken and made into a load of shit. You don’t spell honour, honor, or even colour, color. Honour and Colour are the way you spell it and the extra vowel is not to confuse people, it is to make it a real word !
Anyway just thought i should add my 2 bob haha ! Catch ya Mofo’s

ok

The following message was brought to you by the Equal Opportunity Bigot Society [EOBS] having the proud slogan, “We’ll s..t on anyone [when they deserve it], even ourselves.”

—

Y’all forgot the other term, “Massa.”

That would solve it all. We just call everyone “Massa,” regardless of gender, national origin, race, creed, color, or religion, and then we can be fair to the “bitter young [or old] feminists,” gays, lesbians, cross-dressers [why they are so cross I don't yet know], Chicanos, Spiks, Wops, Kikes, Spades, Wasps, even in fact all classes of people, including youngsta children under 14–anyone who crosses our path–without resorting to any such descriptive pejoratives to distinguish them as humans one from another. Everyone will be exactly alike, no special privileges in any language whatever will be allowed.

Perhaps we should stop referring to dog owners as their masters, and start calling them just owners as one does with slaves. That won’t work with cats though, because they never have masters or owners, only sugar daddies and sugar mommies and can never be made into slaves. That is why they are called pussies, whether male or female. Women would do well to take note of their example and realize that being a pussy is not being a slave, unless you are a man of course.

This cat anti-slavery attitude should be extended to the work place where the words “boss,” “supervisor,” “manager,” should go the way of the terms “secretary,” “actress,” and “stewardess, though we still have secretaries of defense, state, health and welfare, treasury, and so on and on. It must be that being a secretary is an honor, because it includes the idea of being trusted to keep secrets, though we haven’t seen much cause to grant them such honor. I guess if all actresses are actors they must be performing as men. It should be an honor to be called an “actress.”

This all comes down to our agreeing to creating a classless Massa society of sheep who cannot distinguish in language between any characteristics of sex, race, creed, color, religion, age, social position, commercial position, parking privilege status, or location of home or the lack thereof. We cannot continue to refer to people who do not have a home as homeless, just as Massas. There that takes care of this problem once and for all with not a whiff of dependence upon a woman’s marital status or virginity mentioned.

I think Lady Gaga got it right however. She is a lady, not just a woman, and yet she is gaga, yep,she sure is gaga alright. She is not afraid to be called a lady, nor is she ashamed to have people recognize her as a member of the gaga feminine subset of all human beings. She is not afraid of being seen as a gaga member of any group either. Yeh! Lady Gaga, thanks!

We are ashamed to say that we know we should not be so openly hostile to anyone who disagrees with us, but we feel that every one has a right to our opinion. After all, the EOBS is a bunch of rabbit bigots, nothing more.

Much ado about polarity and station

Why is it so hard to address someone by their name?
Titles are just another form of Control.
Honoring the Title, not the Person.
STOP THE PROFILING!!!

Some that have posted have lamented the decline of morality and some have stated matter-of-factly how language is always changing (evolving?). The “degradation” of the English language bothers me, as does loss of tradition. (hate it when I get “No problem” as a response to “Thank you” – just my little quirk, but think I was meant to live in Jane Austen’s day anyway)

Maria, I believe the COMRADE thing was something called being tongue-in-cheek; a little mood lightening joke.

And, to the person who said “a muck” was spelled wrong and should really be written as one word, “amuck” – oh my goodness, people (“amok” is the word), you have access to a dictionary online, use it!

I have used the term “Ms.”, since the 1970’s, for any women I believe to be over the age of 18. Under 18, “Miss” is appropriate. To err on the side of caution, I would use Ms. In business correspondence, Ms. should be used. As far as “Mr.” goes, it sounds ridiculous to call any man, who looks to be under 30 perhaps 40, by that title, but in business and work-related matters, I would definitely use “Mr.”.
The title “Dr.” is earned by years of study and hard work, thus “Dr.” can and should be used by anyone, who has earned their degree in dentistry, psychology, podiatry, veterinary medicine, Ph.D, etc. not just MD. As a child, my mother insisted that any correspondence with my uncle be addressed as Dr. John Doe, even though his degree was a Ph.D in bio-chemistry.
My sister and her husband both hold Ph.D’s in different fields and are called Dr. at their workplaces and conferences/business affairs, business cards, mail, etc. How is their mail addressed jointly? Dr. Jane Doe and Dr. Peter Pan, [on one line with "and" separating the names], thus signifying a married couple. Since my sister kept her own name, everyone’s life is easier. Otherwise, mail would be addressed as Drs. Jane and Peter Pan. For unmarried couples, Dr. Jane Doe on the top line and Dr. Peter Pan underneath [or vice versa], which would signify an unmarried couple.

I feel that words have power. Even if the meaning has changed the vibration remains. I don’t think i will be calling anyone mr or master ever again and i would like to not be called it.

The usage of “master”, “mister”, “miss” and “Ms” show respect and avoid unfounded familiarity. Many adults are uncomfortable with children and strangers addressing them by their first names. The use of titles to teachers, caregivers and later on, employers reminds us that they are in positions of leadership.Learning to repect others is important. We all desire respect and these time honored if not timeless titles are a good start on that lesson.

Even these honourific terms are gradually becoming obsolete these days what with the widespread usage of texting , emailing and chatting.’ Hi’ and ‘ hello’ have become ways of addressing people . One thing going for these terms is that these are gender-neutral.

That DixieSusan is completely barking you know and she can’t spell either. But then she’s American and they’re all two sandwiches short of a picnic. No offence. Not.

How did you pass over Ma’am, which comes from Madam/Madame which is french for My Lady, and Mr, Mrs and all their forms come to us from French, not Old or Middle English. Thanks to William, Duke of Normandy who invaded England in 1066 and made French the Court language and that indubitably gave modern English it’s “latin” charm. Geesh, people, learn your history, and for pete’s sake don’t tell people half-histories of words, Mr Mrs Miss etc, come from latin’s maestro – which will all know as a “Conductor” for symphonies, and that’s where maegester comes from, it’s not of English origin. And just because a word’s meaning changes does not change it’s origin. Thus, just because Mistress was sarcastically changed to mean a “kept women” it still meant an authoritative female figure…I could go on, but I digress …

Weighing in.
I like the respect and courtesy of using honorifics. Let someone tell you that they would rather be called by first name. It is not that annoying to have to tell someone that they may address you informally.

Hoping not to cause any more inflammation. I also think that there is a use for the Mrs. and Miss honorifics. Though I agree Ms. to be a perfectly useful way of addressing all females in normal day to day situations there are some situations that the Mrs. and Miss come in handy. The situation that first pops to mind is in social situations. An introduction as Mr. and Mrs. when the wife has not taken the husbands last name (you know it happens) or even when they do share the last name it informs of the nature of the connection between the two. An introduction of Mr. and Miss when the couple shares a last name, informs of a parent daughter situation.

Jack is right. Ms is not an abbreviation therefore it should not be followed a period. I like Ms, it reminds me of the 70s when so many intelligent women thought it was important to strive for equality within the society and find the words to express what was wrong with where we were. “Women’s work” inside the home, for instance, was parsed and analyzed and words were found to give it the importance it deserves. The Stone Center for Women, Gloria Steinham, Germaine Greer, countless others, gave me new ways to think about how I felt about my husband, my marriage, my work. Ms reminds me to be grateful.

We should be like the Japanese and use the honorific “san” after the person’s first name, which shows respect without differentiation of gender. Using “kun” for young boys and “chan” for young girls are terms of endearment for children, allowing you to show love and honor, whereas “san” shows respect for any adult regardless of their age or sex.

That being said, I am American and don’t mind using Mr./Mrs./Miss/Ms. but when I think of transgendered individuals, using “san” after their name would be a whole lot less confusing because you could be polite to them without trying to determine which gendered title to use when addressing them.

when I saw that the title said awkward story I thought it would be actually awkward. as to when the man gets mistered and the woman gets called by her first name well, what if you don’t know the man too well but you know the woman? I refer to my teachers as Mr. or Mrs. or Ms. and i do admit that it is a hassle when you don’t know if your teacher is married or not and you have to write their names or something(it’s enough to learn how to spell them) But either way, it won’t kill you to simply ask them their names if they’re your peers. In the case of an elderly person, if you’re not on your bosse’s time then jusr simply refer to them by their name, (it probably makes them feel younger or more acquainted) or call them by the honorific until they tell you what they want to be called. Either way, they’ll probably be too polite to say anything.(or you can notice by how they interact with others and then you might know) Either way, the Mrs. and Ms. and Mr. is good for when you’re a kid or when speaking to people of a superior rank(like your boss or teacher)while you’re in the building and is polite. I think it’s something to teach our children.(the honorifics,I mean) I wouldn’t very much like if i heard little Timmy adressing an 89-year old as “Elaine” so fowardly either.

I was a yong girl in school when one of the male teachers told me I didn’t have to say no sir to him but the ladies in the office told me to do so because it’ll keep him in his place. I assume if we give older peopler that respect we’ll remind them of their age.

My Dear Mrs. H (period added to Mrs. as a spelling correction)

Your reply is a splendid example of my entire point. A “histoy text” indeed. Offshoot Canadians turning loose upon the unwary British English spelling, all run amuck, and on the world wide internet too. Canucks as challenged spellers when all they need is Noah Webster’s (an American) correcting English dictionary.
In retort I can only give you a rousing All American University football cheer”
“Down with George the Third…..Rah, rah, rah….Sis-boom-bah”.

yes….all this coming from a fourteen year old…. And I’m supposedly supposed to be against honorifics?*stereotypes*

Way too honorable for MOST of the modern world’s people. A select few have earned such a title, however.

@E whoaaa….That’s a little harsh on the opposite gender isn’t it? I personally think there are things guys can do and things girls can do. Whichever one does it better depends on the person. Well, either way we need both to keep the humans going. And as for the B.s guys throw around, just because some ppl fall for it doesn’t mean all guys are bad nor should we girls somehow plan world wide domination. All in all, it’s the girls and guys fault why they turn out like that right? A girl had to give birth to them right? Had to raise them? Raised them right? Also, also, many guys desert their children. And someone had to help MAKE that baby right? I’m not saying that we all need a father figure in our life (cuz I don’t have on on this earth either) but the thing is, the blame is 50/50. It’s how the ppl come out that causes this. The blame is 50/50 but if one of the parents tried to guide their kid while the other one went awol, at least that person tried. It’s all up to the kid after.

Girls can turn out like that too. and they have.

I am a Protocol Officer and use various titles every day. I always have this exact discussion with ‘newbies’ to the protocol profession and my best advice I give is “simply ask the individual, ‘In what manner do you wish to be referred?’”. The person will always have an answer for you. That ends the quibbling over titles. Just remember what they said and use that term from then on.

Ross,
You stated that “when (most) men and women freely choose to be more ‘masculine’ or ‘feminine’ in order to express who they truly are”. That is what is happening today. People are expressing who they truly are without the constraints of the simple narratives of the past that were used to define what it meant to be a man or a woman. If you fit in that box that society set up then by all means honor it and be true to yourself but many people cannot be so neatly summed up. You would not be able to tell my talents or interests based merely on whether I am male or female. Every person is a complex mix of their upbringing, beliefs, talents, thoughts, experiences, etc. Understanding this is not so much an issue of, as you stated, an obsession with equality but is more an issue of respect and acceptance that we live in a beautifully complex world.

Let’s let our actions denote our level of respect and stop worrying so much over historical prefixes. I do enjoy etymology but it’s the respect and courtesy we convey — not the words we use — that ultimately should judge a society.

I look forward to the day when women no longer have to choose between Miss, Ms or Mrs. It’s a vestige of sexism that I have to declare my marital status and political preference (using Ms makes a statement as well), when men don’t have to; I wouldn’t mind doing so if men did, too. Language is a powerful, albeit subtle, way of perpetuating attitudes; that’s why we no longer use colored or negro as a way of specifying one’s ethnic background.

A related pet peeve of mine is when physicians use their honorific outside of their workplace; while in the doctor’s office or hospital, it’s important to distinguish a doctor from an orderly (sometimes they wear the same scrubs!), but socially it’s just pretentious and unfair. Should singers introduce themselves as Diva Smith or dancers as Ballerina Jones? Those professions are just as difficult to acheive mastery in. Lawyers don’t use Esquire anymore, except on their business cards. Honorifics can be nice if used as an egalitarian way of showing respect, but often end up adding unnecessary, unfair, and/or unwanted meaning.

Feminism is a pollutant in modern society; I would that I had not known of this horrible belief’s existance. Sometimes I look back on history of 19th Century England in Charles Dickens’s books and wish that we could have retained some of their honourable customs. Alas, many of them are gone, but Mr. Mrs. and so forth, must be retained.

I take back my earlier compliment, I do not disagree with Mrs M.M, but I wish that she herself had a little more honour herself, not to be divorced.

I think that when it comes to using or not using honorifics its best to just go with the flow; if you’re in a setting or situation in which everyone else is using them then it would be rude for you not to but if you are in a setting where no one is using them then there is no reason why you should.

Thirty-five times the word “offend”, or one of its variants, has appeared on this page already. Thirty-five freakin’ times. Nah that’s lame.

finding the root of the words, phrases and proverbs is always troublesome. I am Iranian; when I find out the root of a proverb I usually use, I cannot use it anymore. So, let’s forget the root and see the branches and twigs with beautiful leaves and fruits.

I’m rather disappointed by the nostalgic conservatism of some of the commentators here. The distinctions of Mr, Mrs, Miss and Ms should disappear as they incorporate all the misconceptions and inequality of the past. I also feel more relaxed and comfortable dropping these honorifics. It is with some amusement that I read older texts wherein people are described as ‘engineer’ this, ‘land-surveyor’ that, and imagine how stuffy the world used to be. I certainly don’t define myself in the narrow terms of how I earn my money or my social status, and have formed the opinion that those people who wish to retain these niceties are colder, more inhibited, perhaps insecure, and definitely eager to artificially impose an iron mask of formality on any interaction. Let’s say respect comes from treating people equally rather than using these archaic terms.

Oh my God! I am blushing!

How embarassing..

B’More or`Less Hun, Oui? Some Greedy Capitalist idiot actually trademarked “Hon”. Put that in your honorifics, Mr. or Miss Stress? oui oui.

Babe, maybe, Oui?

I don’t know *any* women who would find it acceptable, much less polite, to be called “ma’am”. But then, I don’t really know any matronly women from the U.S. deep south, either.

I grew up with “Ms.” for a woman (married or not) and “Mr.” for a man (married or not.)

I totally get what you’re saying, Naomi. We should use the titles. When I meet a woman, I want to know if she’s available or not. Using the titles makes it convenient and socially acceptable. Cpilk has the right idea: teach kids in school so that it becomes a habit and more accepted.
(and down with the feminists/radicals!!)

I think it’s so cool that mr came from Master; after all, that’s what men are. The abbreviations show the genders’ true place in society.

You stupid feminists are all about liberating women, but has anyone ever thought that women have been genetically seleceted to be less than men? For thousands of years men have wanted subordinate wives. The result is that their children have a better chance at having dominant genes characterized by the subordinate trait.

Why do we even have a mrs? Why bother getting married when you can have as many women as you want without having to provide for their lazy asses?!
If we just stuck together and decided to stop marrying these girls, we would have the ideal society.

Free love, baby. That’s what it’s about.

Mr. Not Dumb (period properly added to Mr. and word separation as a correction to “NotDumb”)

Sir, I do not bark. Canines bark. Seals bark. I am neither Sir. And as to the libelous (another word British English has trashed, improperly spelling it “libellous” with a second ‘l’) assertion that “…she can’t spell either”, need I say more? Do I detect the pot which calleth the kettle here “NotDumb”?
The meandering unfocused and impaired British English spelling mind meanders off to “ sandwiches” yet. I am not short of sandwiches upon my picnics. Proper planning, coupled with proper sacking and a good check-list sees to that as well. I never miss spell.

@ Kuze – Thank you!!

@ Nigel – “I certainly don’t define myself in the narrow terms of how I earn my money or my social status, and have formed the opinion that those people who wish to retain these niceties are colder, more inhibited, perhaps insecure, and definitely eager to artificially impose an iron mask of formality on any interaction.”

Very well-stated! Indeed, some people simply do not have the capacity to exist beyond the black and white way in which they were taught to view the world. The notion that we can still be respectful without the outdated honorific system is so foreign a concept because they are simply unable to distinguish that the title and the respect aren’t mutually exclusive.

When I was growing up in the 60s, I often received mail addressed to Master followed by my name. My grandmother told me that was how kids were addressed in correspondence. The connotation of having dominion never entered my mind, but it tickled me that I was being treated with the same respect as an adult when receiving mail.

I like Ms. because whether or not I’m married is irrelevant. I won’t respond to Miss because I’m a hit, not a miss, and you can’t miss me because I’m right here. Honestly though, I identify more as a person than a woman and feel like putting everyone’s sex before their name is a little silly. A simple “hey you” would be sufficient to get my attention for someone who doesn’t know my name.

Creepy…lol…I’m blushing…

I don’t get it…what’s so funny?

Naomi: I’m with you 100% on courtesy and manners. However, it sounds like you have a rather derogatory sense of the word ‘feminist.’ It seems a shame to see such a positive and affirming expression swallowed up by such a negative stereotype.

I’m a teacher in the U.S., and since schools are one of a very few places people are referred to by their last names, I had to choose what title to take. When I first came to my school, one of my 15 year-old students very astutely asked me if I went by Mrs., Miss, or Ms. W. I answered, “Ms.”

To which the student responded, “Ahh yes. The hard-to-read one.”

Which is exactly why I use it.

miss+ Missress _ur keeper, mrs is when a female maries a male, Ms is when ur a sibling….jeee

I think that maybe even more courtesy is needed. Instead of saying “yo dude over there” you can say “excuse me sir” or something of the sort. Just a thought.

Good we still care to respect the elders who have given us the present!

Our forefathers that settled this country knew respect and used these titles to show respect. We however, current day, find most of these titles to cumbersome and belittling. Somehow we are above all that old school jargon that came from the mother country.
I personally think that time will repeat itself due to what started these customs in the first place. I think that in old days people carried guns and the world was a much more violent place. Back then people were careful who they insulted for fear of dying by some short tempered mental. Not know those folks (the mentals) from Adam meant being polite to everyone. Thus, being able to live another day.
I think as our world over populates and the mental’s become saturated in society, all of us will take another look at our human brotherhood and go back to the ways of old. I try to be polite due to the fact that I am a small business owner that deals with the public on a daily basis. While I keep an AK-47 behind my counter top and have the place loaded with security cameras, that does not replace a lost customer due to my being short with someone or disrespectful. And any business owner knows that getting a customer is one thing but keeping a customer is another. Anyone can lose customers but it takes someone on top of their game to retain them. Therefore, I already (in the present day) find it in my best interest to be courteous, polite and accommodating to everyone not just my customers. Because the toes you step on today might be attached to the A$$ you kiss tomorrow. Ahhh Mr. Judge Sir, I didn’t mean to call you bad names when you rear ended my car last month at the piggly-wiggly.
Using Mr. Mrs Ms or Miss shows respect, it makes people feel better about themselves and reciprocate the acknowledgement which grows my business. And then there is the thing that our forefathers knew all to well… you never know what nut case will have you in his sights next and kissing a little a$$ by showing some respect and saying Mr A$$hole is better than being DEAD! I think.
paintmestupid.com <<< coming soon

There is nothing wrong with Mr. or Ms. I rather use Sir or Ma’am… It really depends on the person you are talking to how they want to be address! Some what to be called by First or Last names some even Nicknames…

My Spanish teacher refuses to be called Mrs., even though she is married, because she says it derived from Mr.’s, as in ownership over a women. She is just crazy I guess lol.

We use these for pageants a lot. Miss is used for Drag Queens and Ms. for real girls.

Oh also,

At my high school we stopped using titles and are now strictly on a first named basis with teachers. The world is changing ahhh!

Blast From the Past:
You know, I asked him about that. And
he said that good manners are a way we
have of showing other people that we
respect them. See, you’d eat like a
slob if you
were alone, but since another human
being is present, you show that person
respect by going to the trouble of
having proper manners. I didn’t know
that. I thought it was a way of
appearing superior.
(then)
Know what else he told me?

What?

He thinks that I am a gentleman and
that you are a lady!

Well, consider the source. I don’t
even know what a lady is.

Exactly! I thought a gentleman was
somebody who owned horses. Turns out,
the short and very simple definition
of a gentleman or a lady is: someone
who always attempts to make the people
around him or her feel as comfortable
as possible. That’s it! If you don’t
do that, nothing else matters. The
cars, the clothes, the houses…

Where did he get all that information?

From the oddest place. His parents
told him. I don’t think I got that
memo.

Alva is an especially silly, arrogant child.

Re; professionals wanting honorific abbreviations in front of their names

Are the Germans still obsessed with this? A 1980s movie with HERR, DOKTOR, PROFESSOR Metz had me on the floor. The movie was almost over by the time he got introduced.

A minor irk. Go to the washrooms in a restaurant, etc. and find them labeled LADIES and Men. (Or even worse, Guys) Want equality? I do! Should be Ladies and Gents. Should be Gentlemen but that’s too long and too expensive a sign to purchase. Actually, it should just be Men and Women. Nobody at McDonalds is royalty, or married to it, and the modern context of respectful and respectable, well-mannered people of both sexes goes out the window when you watch the Sasquatches that shamble in.

To our Brit commentator, well said. There are some British social groups who have their problems with spelling and grammar, but, socially and linguistically the British average better than Americans. The Queen’s English, and rightly so! I read a comment on another thread where a man claimed to be speaking(writing) “The President’s English.” Enough to pucker my sphincter. At least Obama’s English is better than George W’s. Met a 20 year old female in Florida with a grade 12 education. She was proud that she’d “got her graduation.” I don’t know where she kept it, possibly in a box with her diploma. Probably Southern Baptist because she didn’t know what a Catholic was or what and where Mardi Gras was. She had a job as a clerk with the county Sheriff’s office but didn’t know what a caucasian was. She asked one day what a caucasian was and was told, “You are.” “No I’m not!”, she huffed, “I’m an American.”

I’m a 16 year old girl and I always use specefic titles. I address all females (especially teachers) as Ms. because I believe that it is more respectful and avoids an awkward situation. I would only address a women as “Mrs.” if she introduced herself that way, because I know of several women (my mother included) who have kept their maiden name and wish to be addressed as “Ms. Name” rather than “Mrs. My Husband’s Name”. At work (I am a waitress and lifeguard), I address women as “Ma’am” and men as “sir” because, again, I believe it is more respectful. Just my opinion.

Also, Naomi, us bitter young feminists aren’t going anywhere.

Hold up! At ease, gentle Folk. Let’s be Adulterers and Adulteresses about this. For the next few hundred years we could call Women, “Mr.” and Men, “Ms. or ” Mrs.” If he is married. Then everybody will have had their equal turn of perceived or intended respect or indignation and we can regroup and go from there. If at that point we can’t agree we could reserve the option to severe all communication whatsoever with one and other.

If you intend sincere respect, it is. If not, it isn’t . Isn’t it?

Another use for these honorifics (which may have been mentioned already) is as a way to address a stranger without saying ‘Hey you!’

I too have heard people that say, “Don’t call me that, it makes me feel old.” In fact I know a few people that get outright enraged. (I know its stupid…)

Yet there are still people, some on this site, that are offended by the opposite. I believe it’s a matter of how you were raised and in what environment.

Someone mentioned being raised in the south, and moving north to find some people offended by the use of Mr/s and Sir or Ma’am. Some of it could be regional, but I think for most it boils down to how much you respected the rules you learned as a child.

For instance, someone is raised in the south by a stern parent that enforces the use of honorifics. If they truly respected and admired this parent, they would probably continue to follow this idea into adulthood. If their parent, for instance, were an unemployed abusive drunk… Then they may never call someone Mr/s again if they could avoid it.

I believe this is true of all things people get offended by. We were all taught different rules, and we all respected them at different levels. A good, although controversial, example of this is how some African Americans feel it’s OK for them to use the “N” word among other African Americans. Yet others feel the term should not be used at all. And then there are those that would use that same term when referring to a Caucasian because they know it truly means ignorant. And then there are those that think its totally fine in any company if they misspell/mispronounce the end.

I can’t believe I just compared, Mr. and Mrs. to the “N” word rofl… But I believe it’s completely true, although the scale of offense is much smaller for Mr/s.

So I guess I would say overall honorifics are quite useless. Seeing as you could offend someone either way. I would say anyone who gets offended by not being called Mr/s is probably a bit full of themselves, and anyone who gets offended by being called Mr/s probably just likes being the center of attention… Wait did I just say all people that get offended by honorifics, are self centered? I think I did.

:O They beta call me Miss … if i do decide to marry maybe mrs …but never MS…… im not a lesbain

I think the discussion is largely moot. Slowly but surely the titles will die off. Yes, my generation wears baseball caps in restaurants, sports flip flops when meeting the president, and addresses strangers by the first name. It’s just as terribly shocking and deeply inappropriate as women who wear pants, kids who say “jeepers,” and men who forgo full knee-length frock coats at the office. I don’t know how we’ll manage it, but somehow we’ll survive and civilization will carry on. And, frankly, I think the sooner this particular fashion changes, the better. In a multicultural and gender-ambiguous world, I don’t see the point in making distinctions between Mr. and Ms. I’ve accidentally referred to Mr. Orit __ and Ms. Raja __, Ms. Kelly __ and Mr. Kevin __, offenses that could have been easily avoided by dropping the titles. Why cling to these antiquated and troublesome prefixes simply to avoid the tut-tutting of a previous generation that was itself more than happy to ruffle a few feathers in its time? Kids these days!

i have no problem at all in calling people with respect all my life i have been call senor or mister and i call people with the same respect no matter whom he or she is wealthy or poor good maners fight with no one.but please keep in mind that buenas maneras hacen la diferencia entre la mujer i la dama . thank you .

In a lecture addressed to the first year Journalism & Media Studies students of Rhodes University in Grahamstown, South Africa, linguistics professor Sally Hunt discussed the sexist use of honorifics that carries into today’s society. She talked about how “Mr” could refer to any male, either married or unmarried, yet honorifics referring to females, such as “Mrs” and “Miss”, unnecessarily brought their marital status into view. She correlated this with statistics from a vast number of newspapers across the world proving that women discussed in the media, regardless of their level of professionalism, were astoundingly more likely than men to be defined by their marital and family status as well as their age, regardless of its relevance.

I think one needs to be considerate of how one uses honorifics – adopting the use of “Ms” isn’t going to hurt anybody – as even these tiny contractions can reveal unsavoury details about our appently “non-sexist” society.

I find the origin of the words interesting, but unrelated to today’s use of the honorifics. Being polite has to do with putting other people at their ease, and showing respect. When dealing with customers or superiors in the workplace, I think it is polite and respectful to call them Dr/Mr/Ms/Miss/Mrs, whichever THEY prefer, regardless of their or my age, until THEY suggest otherwise. A paying customer or a boss is entitled to that, at the least.

I don’t oppose honorifics as a whole because they convey respect and establish relationships, but I do believe that “Mrs.” and “Miss” are antiquated and I would like to see them disappear. The overriding purpose of these honorifics is to learn a woman’s marital status, and although they makes sense historically, I believe they are now irrelevant and borderline nosy.

Personally, I would rather be called Ms., regardless of marital status. Mrs. is antiquated and harkens an era when women where known as Mrs. John Smith, etc. When I get married, I will not assume my husband’s last name, therefor, no “Mrs.” for me!

No one has mentioned that, generally, it is easier to pronounce first names. I would rather show respect by pronouncing another’s name correctly. Also, first names are, for me, easier to remember. When you are able to recall one’s name in a future encounter, a great deal of respect is conveyed.

These titles should still be kept because formality and even politeness is something our society should still use. It would be rude to go around calling your teacher by the first name. And if we do remove the titles of Mr/Miss/Mrs/Ms then what about titles like “Dr.”?
Even if the titles originated from old fashioned ‘titles (ex: Mistress or Master)’ it’s not seen as that today so I highly doubt that they are a problem if kept. There are many words still used today that were kept from older days but the meaning has changed.

The article was interesting! Thank you for sharing!

I think it’s really sexist of someone to say that.
i believe that, but still…why do men get to be basically called MASTERS?! Women can be masters too! I think that those pre-fixes are kinda stupid. Just call them by there name or last name.

Well, there may be a cure for those who refer to Feminists as being “bitter, old”, or an unmarried woman as a “spinster” or “unable to catch a man”.

Wait a bit until the US has reverted back to the “good old days” where women were treated like second class citizens, the State forced them to have unwanted children, they could have the privilege of working alongside men doing the same job and be paid half the salary; the days when sexually snide remarks and being groped by strangers were commonplace and those who objected to all this were called “strident feminists”. I remember those days, and may experience a little schadenfreude when today’s clueless young women give up the first-class status we fought for and experience the dark ages of being a second-class citizen once again.

I’m a spinster by choice, and I love it, because that’s the only way I can enjoy the lifestyle all men enjoy.

You can call me Ms.

i agree with luther…and naomi,that a bit harsh to feminists

As a young woman, I can say I agree with no one. That is just the way it used to be. I don’t know if any one has noticed, but everything is like that. Men still feel on top, and honestly, women are still lower, no matter how much men let us think otherwise. It is respectful to use these titles, just as it is to offer assistance if needed or to give out a cup of sugar. Every one needs to sit back and think “Does this really effect me? Or am I only caught up in this discussion because I read this little article here?”

-J

Personally, I think it’s slightly ridiculous that women have to be objectified to Miss., Ms. or Mrs. because they relate to their marital status. We are in an age where women are as powerful as ever and still women use abbreviations to words that have an almost possessive tone to them. I’m glad to see now that women are approached as Dr. and not just as someone’s wife. I know that this is a bit of a feminist take on the whole situation but, I believe that it needs to be known that women should be able to have their own type of formal greeting that’s origin doesn’t relate to men. Men aren’t the say all be all anymore, society has grown and our language needs to too.

…. All this stress over an extra word?
I can understand that some people don’t like to use honorifics. That’s okay. And if you do like to use honorifics, go use them. Do what you like; just don’t attack others for doing something different.

Mrs. – Married woman, only when foreknowledge of marriage is present, or when association with her husband

Ms. – (Miss) unmarried woman or child

Ms – (Miz) any woman younger than the speaker, or in a position of semi authority, or when the state of marriage is unknown

Ma’am – Woman of full authority or woman past middle age. (or a girl behind the wheel of the car when cops are using intimation tactics >grinshudder<

What about the unmarried man’s title “Master”? Or the plural “Messrs.”? (And what is the plural for women?) What if one is unsure of the marital status of younger man (what is the equivalent to “Ms.” for males)? What about widows and widowers (interestingly, the only word that I know of that changes the feminine version to fit a male)?

I write to you with absolute certainty that the use of the word Master to refer to any individual, male or female, of any life form other than the Maker/Master/Owner/Commander Of All Ingredients In, Of, To This Live Growing Planet Life Form is to INSULT Master.

Rebecca Lynn, Student of the Maker/Master/Owner/Commander of ALL Ingredients In, Of, To This Universe

For me, whether you’re married, single, attached, heterosexual, LGBT, male, female or any of the other sexual and gender categories you could fit into is not something that needs to go in a title. Currently we only have them for male and female, will be good when people who don’t feel like they fit properly into either of those have options. I love being married. So does my husband, and where’s his special title? Let’s have the divorced one, the in a committed relationship one, the de facto one, the screwing around one, the waiting patiently for the person of my dreams one…. Or we could just be people. If it’s necessary to put your gender on a piece of paper, okay. But let’s leave it at that!

Interesting article, we are so used to using these titles, but we have no idea of what they mean, we just use them. However, here in Canada it seems that people in the big cities don`t make use of those so much, I myself, particularly, don`t use them that much…whenever I`m introduced to someone I usually go by the first name, unless I`m in my work emvironment and there`s someone to whom I should show some respect. I`m a man and I must say I`d rather have someone calling me by my first name, I don`t know it makes everything more personal, but that`s just my opinion. I also hate when I call a woman Ms. for example and I stand corrected…and she goes like MRS…….lol…Why use titles nowadays? We`re totally passed beyond that….

dude…this makes me hate men even more…we are still expected to refer to them as Master? F that…

“Mister” derives from the Latin “Magistar” (literalally ‘Master’) NOT Old English. Time to fix it.

@ben
Elders are more deserving- they’re older!

At what point was it decided that we were all buddies and should be addressed by first name, not title? And when did it become OK for me, a total stranger, to become your “Honey,” “Darling,” or “Sweetie?” Doesn’t matter what mister or missus meant 1000 years ago. We need to get back to basics!

I understand everyone, but times are changing. I can see how Mrs. and Ms. formed out of derogating the original use of mistress to name a teacher. People basically ended up coming up with ways to laugh at such incovenience by callign some women the “mistress” to degrade a kept woman of a married man. To remove it, is it that we become more simple-minded or complex to logically turn to Mrs. and Ms. instead derogating mistress?

More adults also seem to liek just being called by their name, not “ma’am” or “sir” these days.

Maybe using words like “Mrs., Ms., or Mr.” would be great for back-pocket talk since obesity is so high. I know those are obscene comparisons or juxtaposition, but because obesity is high, it also means people are stressing more over little things that are social… JUST AS MISTRESS CHANGED BECAUSE OF SOMETHING “social” which was its derogatory meaning. We are using many words today, it seems, that are segregated from the originals to avoid derogation, or they are simply slang. I am just saying: maybe because people stress over correction in life so much, they need to exercise more, but for people who have time, maybe still being able to use “Mrs. and Ms.” works along the way. Only a genius would know when NOT to use Mrs. and Ms. just to sound inferior to the right person, if you know what I mean in any Holocaust-related happenings… as they happen in TINY bits all over the world… YOU HAVE to believe that, since there are so many free people, even in other countries. I mean hey: we all still choose what kidn of person we’re gonna be: angry, drunk, happy, forgiving, relentless and persistent, epic… strict etc.! All mixed around for separating… or… being special!

I felt drunk when I thought this watching The Descendants today, but people should always believe every one person is ONE AND ONLY… it’s because people don’t think they are special or “the only one in the world” feeling, they aren’t so happy. It’s psychological, but it seemed clear at the time and all the other thoughts that went with it. “Drunk” … it seems as though any sugar/alcohol rush I have ever had is waiting to haunt me… waiting for me to re-activate tired brain cells. I’d also recommend people not to smoke, drink, or do drugs like sugar unless they are willing to replenish, re-activate, wake up, or repair… the aftermath. IT seems stress consolidates it… or distills it into their life. This is why people see the truth when the ydie because YOUI CAN’T argue with death when it happens. It’s something with anger, hatred,… and all that that prevents you from seeing more. So when you are unable to live anymore… and argue unfortunately, you see your life flash in front of you because… it’s massive pain you can’t run away from. Pain can show you life…. Off-topic, but it all kind of connects, don’t you think?

“With our country today it’s being found difficult to find common ground in anything, mainly…” GRAMMAR! Sorry, Naomi… But seriously, your post has so many errors in it, It’s shameful.

I have to say that the origin of “Mister” described above seems… off.

Middle English was heavily influenced by Middle French as a result of the Norman invasion. The pronunciation of the French “monsieur”, with accents and silenced consonants in play, is “mis-yoor”. By contrast, the French translation for “master” is “maître”, which is… quite a bit different.

“monsieur” appears to be a contraction of “mon” and “sieur”, which with “mon” translating as “my” looks an awful lot like “my sir”. This is borne out by the feminie equivalent: “madame” from “ma dame”, which translates literally as “my lady”. Add to this the titular prefixes of “Sir” and “Dame” used to designate knighthood in England, through in the influence of differences of accent and pronunciation across and between England and France, and this seems a more likely story than “mister” being derived exclusively from “master”.

In the same way, the French “madame” actually evolved into the English “Madam” as the feminine equivalent to “Mister”. This is the term which is shorted into “Ma’am”, the feminine equivalent of “Sir” in uses unrelated to knighthood, or at least in American English. However, its full form has, like “Mistress”, fallen into disuse due to being saddled with a derogatory secondary definition: it is the job title of a female owner or manager of a brothel, a more dignified feminine version of “pimp”.

This correlation does not extend to “Miss”. The French functional equivalent is “mademoiselle”, which derives by the same rule as “my damsel” (as in the phrase “damsel in distress”, which seems to be the word’s only remaining usage). Also of note that, in formal address, the titular prefix for a boy below the age of majority (or at least below the age of 13), actually *is* “Master”. Given that, it seems more likely that the use of “Master” in this context comes from “Mister” rather than the other way around, much as “Miss” comes from “Mistress”.

Matt needs to get a life; to many analogies for such a trivial subject

I’d like to point out that, in our society today, most of the younger generation (me) doesn’t use the honorifics Mr and Mrs, except when instructors demand it. I personally have never felt comfortable calling someone older (well, older enough to deserve my respect) than me by simply their first name. Sometimes, when my friends come over and call my parents by their first names, instead of Mr or Ms, it kinda freaks me out, because I’m not used to that and I never do that. Even if certain adults ask me to call them by their first name, I’ll still add the honorific before it. (i.e., Mr Kevin, Ms Shannon, etc.) Any in my generation should join me! Bring back the image of youth being respectful, polite, how we used to be viewed. It seems so many of our elders wish for respect, but are so surprised when they get it. Make them expect it! Respect is mandatory!

I would also like to add a few more things, now that I have read more of the comments.
To all you feminists out there- are you serious? Have you ever realized the irony of your title (feminist, not Ms or Mrs)? Of what I know of feminism, it actually is trying to make us LESS feminine. “We can be masters, wear suits, be on top. We don’t need men, there’s no need for respect just because I’m female, and my title (Ms or Mrs) no longer depends on my marital status.”
I don’t know how any of you, individually, feel about the subject except for what you’ve typed, but I think we should still respect men because, let’s face it, we’re NOT equal. Yes, we deserve respect- but also yes, we are insubordinate. There’s a reason we were placed under man’s dominion. Have you noticed how, before, men respected us because we were delicate creatures, made by God to be man’s companion? Not equal. Companion. We used to be placed on a pedestal of sorts- but once we attempted to gain equality, we were brought down from there. Men used to respect, trust, love the dainty creatures we were- and most still are. If a man disrespected a woman, he should be shunned by his entire society.
Maybe man isn’t our “master,” but he still deserves to be respected.

I agree with many… Naomi, Matt, Dee and others.
I am married for a long time. A status has become institution kind of. I like to be called Mrs, first and foremost and I didn’t know before that Ms existed for a long time, and I thought it was Gloria Steinem’s etc; I didn’t like the term Ms, personally.
Next, Dr. is for Doctor of Medicine in health profession should be designated for those having these degree and not for PhD (Doctor of Philosophy, originally I think). PhD’s should have a different title—Pr (Poctor), perhaps.
Then, I remember when I went back to school as a mature student; I was taken aback finding students didn’t answer standing to the teachers/instructors, as we did back home…. Another shock later on I had noticing a very young teen age, well may be a little older, addressing an older and experienced 60+ someone using name!
Finally, Dee you are so very right! Yes without their (You know who I mean) help I myself a woman of 64 wouldn’t be allowed to sit amongst and along with the children who could have been my own grandchildren and enjoyed class/course/lectures in high school, University of Toronto and such. I am thankful for allowing me to that.
Enjoyed the article. Great read.
Thank you.
PS: I don’t have any grand children.

While the title Mrs. and Mr have been used too many times to count, this article disturbs me due to the fact that Mr. comes from the word “master” as in one with power while Mrs. comes from the word “mistress” which isn’t a very valid term for a married women. In current times, have we not yet escaped past sexism?

When I was growing up, the following rules applied to the honorifics:
> Married:
> Man – Mister, Mr
> Woman – Mrs
> Unmarried:
> Woman – Ms
> Man – Master
> Young:
> Girl – Miss
> Boy – Master

I would often receive birthday cards from Aunts and Uncles, as well as friends of my parents addressed to Master Stephen ….

The Master that most find objectionable may well be use of the honorific for a Ship’s Master, an Articifer who would be an Apprentice’s Master etc. Military Officers of the same rank often refer to each othere as Mr Smith or Mr Jones (not sure how they deal with females in this day and age). As these roles were mostly held by Men and not the fairer Sex as females were oft referred, there is a degree of masculinity involved in the honorific.

Regardless, we should respect the desires of others and use the honorific they prefer.

I would now like to submit a correction: I said women are insubordinate to men; this was a typo. The word I had meant to use was “subordinate,” instead of “insubordinate.”

I once read in a book about manners (I was eight or something) that “Mr.” is a generic term for any guy, but “Mrs.” means a married woman, “Miss” a girl or unmarried woman, and “Ms.” any woman. It also said that some people think it’s rude to call someone “Miss”, because it acknowledges the fact that they’re not married.

That I understand. What I don’t understand is why one commenter said that they’re not gonna call a 14-year-old “mister”.

I was like, “Huh?”

What is it with society that the grown-ups have suddenly lost almost all traces of respect for younger people? It’s all respect your elders, respect your elders, and yet no one ever says respect younger people. And saying that elders are more deserving just because they’re older is like saying men are more deserving just because they’re male, or that Caucasians are more deserving just because they’re white. Like Sirius Black once said, if you want to see someone’s true worth, look at how he treats his inferiors. If you were to do that with the general population of the US, you would probably see a country full of jerks.

I live in Louisiana, and I guess in the South it’s more common for an adult to refer to a kid as Miss or Mister (not Missus, of course, because that would imply that they were married). It’s just routine courtesy. And when you don’t get a kid used to that, then when they get older they’ll probably end up like Mayella Ewell in “To Kill a Mockingbird”: when someone starts calling them “ma’am” or “Miss” or “sir” or “Mister”, they’ll think they’re being made fun of. I personally like it when someone calls me “Miss Betsy” or “ma’am” – it acknowledges the fact that even a preteen deserves some regular everyday politeness.

What is this country coming to?

P.S. I AM a feminist, by the way – and I’m living proof that you can think girls should be allowed to go to school and go to college and get a job and be whoever they want to be . . . and STILL like wearing dresses.

Just don’t call me late for dinner…

omg, comments like Naomi’s and Michelle’s freak me out! I imagine them as MISTRESS (lol) Umbridge from Harry Pottet, and it gets on my nerves! Ugh! For me is mort importa to show respect with your acts than mith some title.

Titles are not the only thing involved in politeness. You can’t slap an honorific onto insulting words or actions and expect that to turn you into a proper lady or gentleman. I’m not saying that you should never use titles, but they’re kind of like cherries. If you put a cherry on a sundae, it’s a nice addition, albeit a relatively minor one. If you put a cherry on a pile of horse plop, that doesn’t turn it into a sundae. Arguing over titles like they’re the main factor in manner is like arguing over whether the cherry turns the manure into a sundae. Politeness has much more to do with how you treat a person, and much less to do with what you call him or her.

@Betsy (age 12)- I agree with you in that elders aren’t necessarily more deserving of the honorific, although they are deserving of it.

@Nick- I think the honorific is more like the chocolate sauce- many people don’t like the cherry (myself included), but who really wants to eat a sundae without chocolate? I think everyone (and please, correct me if I’m wrong) deserves, expects, and wants to be respected- that includes the honorific.

(Betsy. I like how you referenced to “Kill a Mockingbird”.) I think people should call people what they are whether it be Mr. Ms. or Mrs. Wasn’t there at one point a Mizz for divorced women? Not to be sexist I believe we should go back before Woman’s Suffrage, just not with extreme sexism. I mean IF I where a woman and all I had to care about was getting the house clean and making sure the children are ok, I would content. If you think about it a woman’s life was a lot simpler back then

I like the “title” thing as you refer to it as. While, being addressed as “ma’am” isn’t my favourite thing in the world, I do appreciate the respect, and have gotten used to it as my travels frequently take me to the Southern US where the term is commonplace. When it comes to addressing men, I prefer to use the term “Sir” rather than “Mister”, at least in speech. Calling a man Mister, to me anyway, feels a bit rude, unless addressing them by last name (i.e. Mr. Smith).

But long story short, I feel the titles should stay. I makes me feel I am receiving respect when I am addressed as “ma’am” or “Miss/Ms.” and as such, I will return the favour. Just my two cents (or more) worth.

WOAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OoO o.O

Honorifics hold an important use in our society; they serve as a way to politely address someone whose name you do not know.

Although I do like the use of honorifics when you are not addressing someone of familiarity, I think that there needs to be one unified honorific for women.

Firstly, it is based on the backwards notion that a woman’s identity is focused around her marital status. Secondly, it’s just confusing and sometimes embarrassing to have to guess.

Miss could remain in use for a young woman, one who is or appears under 20 or so, but regardless of marital status all grown women should use the same honorific.

I got married last year and I’m sick of being referred to as ‘Mrs’ already. It just doesn’t sit right. I’m clearly not ‘Miss’ anymore and ‘Ms’ sounds like you’re enjoying a bee. I shall now be referred to as ‘Mistress’, regardless of the connotations.

For years I have been advocating that we should stop discriminating between men and women with the use of Mr and Mrs and Miss.

On forms that use these terms, I always write in the margin – ‘Why two titles for women and one for men? Why do you need to know if women are married?’

I also object to the derogatory way Ms is used.

This is usually pronounced Miz – and yet we do not pronounce Mr as Mir !

Why can’t we be Mr and Ms – pronounced Mister and Missus ?

Lynne Haywood

I was always confused with the whole thing, so I just used whatever came out, or more correctly, whatever sounded better. Not in a way that I thought a female I was addressing was married, but in a sense that one or the two options available seemed to sound like it fit, in a purely auditory sense.

As for ‘master’, I grew up with that as a sort of formal term for children. Even now, my mother’s workplace still sends mail WTO children addressing them as ‘Master Spencer’ or what have you.

Nowadays I just use Ms. For the sole reason that it’s shorter than ‘missis’. For the most part I’m under the impression that few people in North America really learn this, and I honestly think it’s a moot point. To me, it’s just a formal manner of greeting, martial status aside. There’s far more ways I personally can be offended than misuse of a Western honorific, and that’s just in the name.

How is this intended to “make you blush”? Probably only with the guys who intend to educate themselves, but most definitely not the girls.

We really should keep this tradition alive. Its proper and more polite and also,when used in a formal tone,it is fitting.

I didnt blush or laugh

WOW!!!:-) THAT IS SOOOOOOOOOOOO INSTERING!!!!!!!!

Titles are outdated and too cordial. I think our generation will probably be the last to use them (I’m 22).

Not only do they sound pretentious, but they are completely redundant. We are moving closer and closer to equality, and all titles do is create gaps between gender and social class. If the purpose of a title is to identify these things, and we as a society have decided these things to be irrelevant, then why carry on an expired tradition?

lol

That is interesting at the same time funny.LOL!:D(Just afew min. ago I was LOLing so hard it made have to almot go to the bathroom XD)

I detest being referred to by ANY honorific. It’s an archaic practice, in my opinion, and is degrading. I feel OLD when someone uses an honorific on me. I won’t lash out at someone for calling me “Miss -Nitro-,” but I sure won’t like it!

As long as it isn’t used degradingly ( I think I spelt that wrong)

eww.

I don’t get it?I’m ten years old.what’s so funny?

Neat!

WHAT?!?!?!?!?

The history of the word’s etymology is interesting, but now days so remote as not to be cogent. I think that Mr., Mrs., and Miss are nice and distinctive (and so do my children includiing 7 daughters). The term Mz. seems appropriate for the misanthropes that dislike being distinguished by the use of Mrs./Miss.

To whom it may concern,

What the author supposes to be funny or embarrassing is that the abbreviations Ms. and Mrs. derive from the word mistress, which today refers primarily to a woman who is having an affair with a married man.

The point of honorifics is respect. It is therefore appropriate to use any title which a person has earned or refers to their profession, such as doctor, reverend/pastor/father, professor, chairman, governor, secretary, captain, general, dean, coach etc. In formal writings and introductions one should refer to any and all degrees, honors, awards and titles which apply. Mr/Ms. or sir/madam should be used in formal situations in which no other honorific is appropriate, or known to you to be appropriate.

Honorifics do suggest respect, but is more respectful still to ask what name and titles the person in question would like used.

If someone wishes to be called by their first name only, their last name only, or by both first and last name but with no title it would be as disrespectful to address them by a tile than to omit a title when asked to use it.

I’ve noticed interesting differences in pronunciation in these comments.

I’ve learned/been taught/inferred that Ms. is pronounced miss and that Mrs is pronounced missis, missus or to my ear and spelling, misses (miss` sez). Mizz is shortened to Mz. the few times I’ve seen it, but I never hear it used in my region.

I have seen Mz. have connotations of a spinster or old maid.

Something amusing which I’ve heard is friends of mine who’ve referred to my mother as “Mrs. (My first name)’s Mom)

some final thoughts: One advantage to Miss over Mrs. is that miss can also be a synonym of woman or girl. Ie. Miss, you forgot your bag, whereas Mrs works as a title but is awkward in isolation, to my ears anyway.

Lets not forget, language is not only evolving, it’s personal and subjective. What I say may not mean exactly the same to you as it does to me. Hence, what’s more important than the words is the tone the words are spoken in. I know that I would rather be referred to as “dude” in a pleasant, charming tone than Sir or Mister in a sneer.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Jocularly, though sincerely,yours,

Dude H. Sapiens-Amateur Philosopher

borriiinnggg!!!!!:)

lol

I say we go back to using “Master” and “Madam.” LOL

I think it is respectful to call people Mr. and Mrs. if used with their last name (e.g. Mrs.Smith, Mr. Black)

Intersting stuff but it wasnt funny so whats evryone sayin haha bout

That was borin but intersting idk lol

Naomi,
Your comment reads like you rewrote it using a thesaurus. The vocabulary you use does not improve the quality of the ideas you are expressing. I agree that there is no problem with using honorifics such as Mr. and Ms. and there is definitely room for tradition and respect in modern life. So although we agree in practical terms I do not and cannot support the reasoning behind your views. Dismissing those who may disagree with you as ignorant or incompetent, as you do when you say, “a few “honorifics” as you’ve called them” referring to the article, is not a valid argument for your position. In fact it only makes you look ignorant because the word honorifics or “honorifics” as you say, is being used correctly. Attempting to discredit your opponent by labeling them “a bitter young feminist”, attempting to belittle them, does nothing good for your position. If you have to resort to name calling there can’t be much of substance to back up your views. The tone of your article was incredibly bitter, closed minded, and disrespectful. Honestly, I almost changed my mind and decided to oppose the continued use of honorifics such as Mr. and Ms.. You certainly make a good argument for abandoning such respectful terms; respect, after all must be earned and the use of such a term indicates that you trust the person to act in a way that deserves your respect. Normally I refer to adults as Mr. or Ms. unless they request that I refer to them in another way, you however (assuming you are an adult) have seceded in losing my respect. I will not be addressing you with an “honorific” any time soon.

ya’know i never did understand what these honouriffics ment but it’s interesting and it sould stay with it

wow thats so weird

I think it’s slightly unfair that the young people are being blamed for not using them. I’m eleven and I think it’s just polite to call someone by their ‘title’; what would you call your teacher if it wasn’t ‘Mr Smith’? It’s just not right to call a teacher by their first name. I think using titles shows respect generally. It’s not implying that anyone’s better than another, only that people deserve – and often like – to be called Mr, Mrs, Miss or Ms. But I do agree that there should be one general term for females.

I agree with Amber, except I use Mr. then their first name. As is Mr. Tino or Mr. Jim. I don’t really refer to someone by their last name. If I am with a friend and his family I don’t say, “Hey Smith, come look at what I found!” I would say “Hey John, come look at what I found!”

This is to be expected. All languages are organic in nature so we should expect changes to occur throughout time. Like how the title “Gentleman” evolved from a “land owner” to a “guy who’s nice to the ladies.”
This is why when we read words, we have to read them in their context, because words have meaning in their context, not as an individual entity. So hello to all Misters and Mistresses out there!

:p:):):):):):):):):):D:P

say what? I do not understand. probably because i didn’t read none of it. I m not lazy though. just tired.

didn’t make me laugh or blush. can someone explain why it said that?

is this like a blog for a certain school class or just anyone?

do not understand

i am confused on two things:
1) how is this supposed to make you blush or laugh???
2) why is English such a confusing language to create???

I’m the 600th comment

wow thats um….. odd

Soooo many comments!!! xD

But yea, I think that those name titles should be kept, how else are we going to identify each other? Human #1, Human #2?

I don’t get how the website said this was going to make us blush or laugh… It’s not funny….

buh-bye!

“Ma’am” is pretty common nowadays.

Wow…English is quite a silly language! Didn’t make me blush but did make me grin I love this article with a very deep feeling and passion! <3

Muffins?

As a person with English as my second language, I’m surprised to see so many mother tongue speakers had no idea what Mr and Mrs meant/derived from! Don’t they teach you the origins of words in school? I also have to admit I always found it confusing that I have to keep track of women’s marital status, besides their name. I’m from a country in Europe where we did away with titles and honorifics in the 70s. We call everyone by first name, be it cousins or teachers, best friends or bosses.

I was always called “Brown” when at school by teachers, never my Christian name or the formal “Mr”. I notice how establishment people do like to emphasize though the “Mr” in conversation to preface a question … as in this example ….. Mr Brown, what do you think of bla bla.

Dang, you people write alot. Who cares! If you had to print all these comments out there would be like 10 pages. Its funny how much people argue

and at “HI~” I’m the 608th comment.

Why are all the posts that have a problem with “bitter young feminist” so bitter and defensive? I just love the irony! Don’t fulfill your stereotype feminists.

I think it makes no difference which title one uses. I will continue to make the distinction because people’s offense to something so trite amuses me.

Why do I have to be addressed by any of these titles? I am a feminist and a married woman. Call me Roseanne and be done. I try not to use any website that insists they need a title. Don’t we have better things to want to agree on?

“Why are all the posts that have a problem with “bitter young feminist” so bitter and defensive? I just love the irony!”

I couldn’t agree more. Geez! Since when did not wanting to be treated like a second class citizen equate with being bitter? Wake up and smell the 21st century!

How much tongue in cheek I can now enjoy whenever I address someone I don’t like; when I say “Hello, Mrs. Smith” and understand what she doesn’t, that I am saying “Hello, Whore Smith”, she’ll never know why I snicker down my nose at her. Not that being a whore is disreputable in our society; it’s become one of the higher paying careers in our gangster culture that venerates everything low and base. Perhaps until, if ever, we raise our society to some standard of civility, it would be best to drop all honourifics that make a pretext of honourable relations.

How I address people
Women–Miss (regardless)
Men–Mr. or Sir
Gender neutral or Genderqueer– Istre, Es, or whatever they please

If your self-worth, or lack thereof, is tied to whether someone calls you Mr, Miss, Ms, or Mrs, then I would suggest that your problems go far deeper than someone’s use, or lack thereof, of an honorific when addressing you. It all seems a bit trivial to me. You particularly Ben.

why r yall typin so much stuff

omg!
thats so weird

OMG I had nooooooooooooooooo idea how confusing that might have been in the past!! I’m just as confused as mself i have know idea if I should use Mrs. Miss or Ms. when I’m talking to a married or unmarried woman. Wat if she’s a widow what do you call her?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Wow, I notice many of these people NEED to be studying English grammar and punctuation prior to their entries! LOL!!! Shonna, for instance (know idea)WTF!

Although i did not completly understand what naiomi was saying, i didnt think the artical was funny or embarrasing to any race or gender

OH YEAH AND HEY BEN YOU CAN STOP PUTTING DOWN FEMALES LIKE THAT AND U CAN BE QUIET YOU KNOW THERE ARE MORE GIRLS IN THE WORLD THAN BOYS!

hi i need to do my homework!

i agree with Savannah and interesting i think lol

yo all my homies in the hood waddup i be stacking paper all day all night stacking bills till it reach the hills i get it in i get it in i get it in stack paper 9 up g ride stack dough get money get paper get high yeah

i agree with young jay

why did u delete his comment he does stack dough all day everyday inside and out

i don’t get how this was supposed to make me blush. or laugh.
correction-
I don’t get it.

I’m doing my homework too. What are you guys all fighting about anyway? I’m a feminist, but I’m a confused one right now.

These were “hot words” indeed. Look what at what it has created! Coño!!

This is stupid. We get why you fought for education, voting rights and jobs, but lets thin about this, there’s almost nothing to fight for anymore. Think about it, you can share bank accounts or completely take them over. Most men and children are scared to death by their wives. women can vote. If you want to fight for your right to play on a football team or have men and women sports merge together, fine, go knock yourselves out, but once you start fighting about whether your married or not, that’s going to far. Men aren’t very happy with snappy women who go on and on about equal rights and how they want everything the man has once their married. Just give it a rest.

I agree that titles are of importance in day-to-day life and that, when talking to friends or other people close, titles can, most definitely, be dropped (if said friend or family member approves of course). But, I do not see why suddenly becoming 18 gives you any more right to be respected than if you are not 18. I myself have seen (and experienced) the prejudices of this world when adults are dealing with people who are under 18; and how (some) adults act as if said under-18-year-old is more ‘incapable’ and ‘unable’ to do the task given to them, because they are under 18. People are circulating this idea of ‘equality’, and how both men and women should be treated with respect (which I agree with totally), but there are people who seem to refer to the fact that only people over 18 should be given this equality in respect. This, I disagree with. Why is it that we a prone to respect only those who are 18 or over?; why is it that people under 18 are shown less respect? Is it that adults believe that we (as under 18 year olds) are futile to delivering the act of respect that has been (or at least should be) shown upon us? Is it that they believe that, because we are under 18, we are rude, arrogant and disrespectful? Why is it that people think these things? Do people believe that the moment that you become 18 you undergo an amazing transformation; which turns you from this ‘immature’, ‘rude’, ‘arrogant’ and ‘disrespectful’ teenager into a ‘mature’, ‘resectful’, ‘respectable’ and ‘honourable’ adult? Well, if you do, I’m sorry to point out that you don’t. I understand that, generally, a lot of teenagers can be rude and arrogant, but there are some of us out there who are not these things! And I have most definitely witnessed adults who, in the period of time I seen them for, do not have the qualities that I have mentioned (that is maturity, respecfulness, respectableness and honourableness). So why is it that this respect that many people believe should be bestowed upon those who are ‘of-age’ and are over 18, but not upon those who are under 18, is this way? Why can it not be bestowed upon those we deserve it (even if they may be under 18), why is it that, to some people, by being under 18 you cannot be mature, respecful, honourable or respectable? These are the questions that I pose to you.

So to conclude: I agree that these titles are necessary in order to show respect to people (especially when you have met only for the first time / you are doing business with them), but I also thing that this respect needs to be shown to those people that are 18, as well as those who are not yet 18.

DAMN I’M A MRS!?

LOL LOL LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOOLOOLLOOOOOOLOOOOLLOOOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL OLOLOLOL OL OLOLOLOLOLOLOLO LOLO OLO LOL OLOLOLOLO L ILOLOLOLOLOLOL LOL OLOL OL OL OLOL OLOLOL OLOL OO O OLO OL OLOLOLO L OLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
L

HHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAH I WTROE ON YOUR PAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

@Daniel damn bro!

I dont get it. Can someone (not me) explain?

I LIKE MONKEYS

oh, i thought Mrs. is for a woman that already have a child

@pooper get life.

In 2012, I still appreciate the age old honorifics of Master for males 13 & under; Miss for girls under 18; Ms. for women 18 & over who do not wish to divulge their marital status; Mrs. for a married woman who does not mind divulging her marital status and; Mr. & Dr. WITH the period at the end. Old American English Emily Post Student Diehard! LOL!

Funny!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (:

hi i am new how are you

Hiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii

like OMG like LOL like Justin Beiber like MEGUSTA like OK

that was extremely boring and i could care less

WOW LIKE WOoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!D!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!i+j=love!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ummmmmmm……i dunno wat 2 say

i dont get it but the facts are quite interesting.

cool story bro

none of that made me blush or laugh. you guys make no………………Wateve “:

i agree with BOB!!!!!!!!!!! GO BOB <3 <3

the answer did make me blush 0;)

soooo…whats the answer?

Waaaayyy to much to read.

haha cool story bro

What if you can’t identify if the person is male or female?

woa…very interesting..!

I was taught at a very young age to show respect to my elders by calling them Mr. or Mrs or Miss. Depending on the sex. (Ms was not invented yet.) My sister was taught the same value, but she started calling elders by the first name, because her new friends did.

I, even, refer to friends’ parents by Mr. or Mrs. One of my friends’ mother being trying to get me to call her by her first name, but after refer her to Mrs., for years, I just can’t do it.

I don’t think I am feminists at least not totally. I remember reading an article by a woman who said “why should a woman announce to world that she is singular or married by being called “Mrs. Or Miss” and man is only refer to Mr, whether he is singular or married”. Also, “by calling a woman a Miss sound like she is missing out of something (like being married)”.

I remember being ridicule by the older generation (even by some of my generation) when I prefer to be call “Ms.” or sign “Ms.” next to my name a formal letter.

When I move into the area that I am now living, I was kind of horrify when I heard a girl of 8 years of age calling a woman in her seventy by her first name. I could understand her mother calling another adult by his/her first name, but not a child.

Also, I don’t understand professional people – for example why a doctor can called his/her older patients by their first name, but doesn’t want his/her patients calling him/her by his/her first name. Or person in business meets a client for the first time, calls him/her by first name.

I don’t think it is downgrading by referring by Mr. or Mrs. Or Miss, because a lot of people don’t really know the original meaning of the words. Like the word “witch” means “wise woman”. So if a woman is called a “witch”, she should concern it a complement, not insult. Some goes to refer a person as Mr./Mrs/Ms/Miss. Also, shows respect which a lot of people don’t have anymore.

ooohhhhh…….

i did NOT blush. at alll!!!!!

I am not quite sure why that is supposed to make me blush or laugh. is it because i am only 12, or am i just not understanding it. ):

How is using a person’s name disrespectful? Everybody is entitled to respect by deefault, so when I “just” use your name, I do respect you. Believe me, if you have lost my respect in you, you will know! I surely would not use your real name.
There is nothing “proper” in using honorifics without meaning. It is just ridiculous.

Most of this I already knew and I enjoyed the article. I do believe the use of Mr. and Ms. holds no political incorrectness so should therefore not truly bother anyone, so it’s use should be continued to show respect. The words themselves may have begun meaning one thing but as of today means something entirely different.
Many of the comments were informative since it seems to have covered various age groups. While many comments were informative others were just simply not relevant. I also found that only one comment was truly offensive, unbelievably so. Therefore that comment is the one I have decided to argue against.
Jeanna,
Respect men? Because they are men? No thank you, I respect those who have earned it by their deeds. You stated “Have you noticed how, before, men respected us because we were delicate creatures, made by God to be man’s companion? Not equal. Companion. We used to be placed on a pedestal of sorts- but once we attempted to gain equality, we were brought down from there. Men used to respect, trust, love the dainty creatures we were- and most still are. If a man disrespected a woman, he should be shunned by his entire society” (Jeanna on December 15, 2011 at 10:21 am). Pedestal? Respect, trust and love (dainty) woman? Seriously what romance novels have you been reading to think this way? Women were considered less than dogs for thousands of years by nearly every single society. Woman were sold to men in marriage where they were treated as slaves and beaten (and still are) sometimes to death by their husbands and this was as is should be and lauded?? Woman were believed to be unable to think with their delicate minds so were often not allowed to be taught anything in any way and were at one time blamed for all the evils of the world and treated as such including beating the devil out of them by men in power (usually the church). I have no idea what you are thinking of with this drivel. Woman have been thought of as sub-par and now women wish to have a say in every aspect of their lives including how they are to be called and viewed and have fought and paid for that right over the years. To men, woman have been no companion but a slave, hence the “Master” title and seen solely as property to do with as they pleased. No I am not a feminist but I am also not ignorant as you seem to be in this matter and I have done much research on this topic (for over 20 years) and will continue to do so.
I have said my piece….have a marvelous day.

This is quite interesting. I don’t like being called Mister though

Ms., pronounced “Miz”, is also used with a woman’s first name to signify a moderate amount of familiarity in the Midwest, such as a kid addressing a neighbor or a friend’s mother. I never learned the last name of my mom’s friend down the street, who I knew as Ms. Becky, and her boys always called my mom Ms. Beth. To this day I still call any older woman Ms. when she asks me to use her first name–it carries connotations of respect and trust, and of the warm strength of character that all women in that semi-rural area seemed to have.

EDIT: “Older” meaning “older than me”, not, y’know, OLD. And Mr. is often used the same way as Ms.

I think that an older woman should be called “ma’am,” a younger woman “miss,” an older man “sir,” and a younger man “mister” or something like that. But on paper formalities should be kept (for instance if you are sending out advertisements) because you don’t always know who you are addressing and it is slightly easier.

There are some interesting variations on the honorifics that I have noticed in my many years: some very formal teachers above elementary school, such as the teacher in the 1990’s TV series “Boy Meets World”, may address their students as Mr. or Miss in the classroom in order to emphasize that the world of academia is a serious adult business, and they are no longer in the “babysitting” world of elementary school.

Within the US military, officers and enlisted personnel are addressed by their rank and not by Mr. or Ms. with one glaring exception: ensigns in the Navy, the most junior commissioned officers, are addressed as Mr. (presumably, today, Ms. for female ensigns) rather than Ensign X. Why, I do not know, but there was a famous novel about an ensign serving in World War II titled “Mr. Roberts” (also a movie). And as we all know, the proper form of address for an officer of higher rank is Sir (or Ma’am), EXCEPT for flag level officers: their subordinates say “Yes, General” or “Yes, Admiral”.

And for the radical among us, according to Dickens in “A Tale of Two Cities”, France after the Revolution addressed everybody as Citizen and Citizeness (in Dickens’ Anglicized form; if someone knows the original French term, let them post an update). Unfortunately, many people were only addressed that way for a short time, since they lost their heads over it. The Bolsheviks did something similar with Comrade (Russian “Tovarich Gagarin” or “Tovara Tereshkova” for example).

This is very confusing

this is confusing

wow confusing

No longer confused. The only people who should be called “bitter young feminists” are actually the guys, so do we call them “bitter young fools”? Just wondering.
Luv u, my dahlings,
Moiself

Somebody (Allan) watches too many movies.

Were you paying attention in history? Tsk, tsk. So, PERSON, if you ask my opinion, young men should be called ‘master’, like in the olden days(1800s).
Ta ta, babies,
Moiself

Unbelievable Jeff!

Messed up that is…

im your master!!!lawl

I am not quite sure what that all explains. can someone help me? i just dont get whats so funny or embarrassing about it. can someone help? if you do, i will give you my aughtograph!

I like Ms., Miss, and Mr., personally…

I’m 40 years old, and I still call “older” women and men Mr. and Mrs.

I can’t bring myself to call my friend’s parents by their first names. I feel disrespectful.

I did not Blush. Nor did I laugh.

I have to say that, as a 14 yr old, anyone older than me is treated with the respectful title, be it Mr, Mrs, Miss or Ms. Not just my teachers, even they think the school think should be as respectful as i am at least, which is not very!! Our school is hopeless at manners of any sort!

soz bout da spelling

Yeah, i agree. -___-

I propose the following in order to establish gender equitability in our culture.

The term “Mister” should continue to be used to refer to men regardless of marital status. The word contains 6 letters, and its abbreviation, “Mr.” (pronounced “mister”), is 2 letters and consists of the first and last letters of the word it abbreviates.

The term “Missus” should be used to refer to women regardless of marital status. The word consists of 6 letters, and its abbreviation, “Ms.” (pronounced “missus” NOT “miz”) is 2 letters and consists of the first and last letters of the word it abbreviates.

I can scarcely conceive of anything more fair and equitable. Damn history! Let’s not be enslaved by the poor decisions of the past!!

I grew up when young people called adults “Mr.” or “Mrs.” unless they were close family or friends. I like that we can have kids call us by our first names, I don’t feel a lack of respect about that. But in some areas I wish things had not become so casual, like at the store. It irritates me when a young clerk at the grocery store sees my name on the check or credit card (or someone over the phone in a similar situation) and calls me by my first name. They are about 20 years younger than I, they don’t know me, and it feels weird. I know they don’t intend any disrespect, are probably just trying to be friendly, but it FEELS like they don’t have any feeling of respect for me. I always appreciate the implied respect when someone calls me Miss or Mrs or Ma’am.
I wish that they would call me by Mrs____ until I invited them to call me by my first name, but I think if I asked them to do that, they would feel put off and offended.
I worked as a nurse in the hospital from ‘85 to ‘05. Most of the patients were older, and using “Mr.” “Mrs.” or “Miss” or “Ms.” – whatever they preferred – was just the way it was. Over the years that has changed, in that a lot of the time people born in the 60’s or later prefer to go by their first name. I always just started with “Mr/Mrs/Ms”/whatever, and then if they say to call them by their first name, THEN I would, but I did not assume to.
It is a small way to show respect to our elders, and when someone is sick, and lying in bed, dressed in a patient gown, a little respect is especially important. For any age, really.
But I guess I can’t change the way that culture changes. I have to just swallow those irritated feelings and adjust.

1.I bushed 2.I am a girlQ

I have to say that the people who believe the terms “Mr., Mrs., and Ms.” are for older people, or our elders, have forgotten that in the past teachers called students by their last names with a title also. It was respect both ways. However, I do concede that we live in a changed society- extremely changed. Yet, since I was raised to call adults by their last names and a title, I do believe we should still have titles as a sign of respect. Also, it shows that you’re not one to fool around. It shows that you’re driven, you respect the person, and you truly want the job, or date, or any other area it can be used for.

Politeness and manners are also becoming a thing of the past, along with proper English. If we keep our children dumbed down and ignorant of social graces , soon we’ll be back in the stone age and ready for takeover by ANYBODY! WAKE UP AMERICA

HOW DOES THAT MAKE ME BLUSH????

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHA

DEATH at everyone clocking Naomi! Women AND Men! I love it!

And to stay on topic, I use honorific titles in professional settings and with strangers who happen to be significantly older than I unless they indicate their preference to be called by their first names, just to avoid unnecessarily ruffling any feathers. But personally, I don’t see the point in them. And I can’t understand how anyone would be offended at being called by their first name. I mean, it is your name, right? You don’t mean to tell me that you’re offended by your own name? That’s the point of having a name in the first place, so you can be identified. Otherwise, we’d simply refer to each other as “hey, you over there!”. That would certainly be no fun!

lauraram, I really agree with your comment. I appreciate that you are affirming gender variant individuals. There are obviously a lot of ignorant people who have never had one thought about gender, especially their own genders, they have been male or female from the day they were born and have grown to become men and women as was expected of them by society. I can only imagine what they are thinking about when they read comments that say anything about gender, gender-variance, gender non-conformists. “What? Chosen gender? Assigned gender? Nonsense! It’s all the same!”

In my previous job I worked as an Office Assistant slash Receptionist. As gender is a big topic on my mind as a result of being transgender, I do not want to assume that people are male and female just because they appear so, so I avoid the use of these horrible gender-specific honorifics/pronouns. People who are gender variant could have been putting a facade on for their entire lives, maybe not even realizing it because they are in such denial, even now. While there is still a lot of homophobia and transphobia, gender variation is becoming more okay in my generation, but it was not as possible for gender variant people to live as themselves before now. Anyone stuck in the non-accepting generation could have to go to their grave as someone that they never felt truly comfortable as. I do not believe that everyone in an earlier generation than mine is the same exact person as they would have been in a society that accepts people as people, not specifically as a female person or a male person.

Anyways, at my job I worked at the same place as my dad. He was/is not comfortable with me being who I am yet, so I had to go by my birth name rather than my chosen name. As a result of this, I never really felt comfortable to address anyone by anything, not their names let alone Mr. and Ms. As a result of this, I would simply try to catch peoples’ attention by looking them in the eye, smiling at them, or other attention-catching methods. I call my parents mommy and daddy (gender-specific terms), but have a lot of experience in avoiding calling people by their first names. But now that I go by a name that I identify with and feel a unity with, I love to introduce myself and be called by my name.

I am 20 and am just beginning my studies to eventually become a physician (it will be 10+ years from now before I get there), and I hope that everyone can show me respect at that time by referring to me as Dr. [last name]. I think that physicians have a great deal of knowledge from their studies and experiences, they have earned a great deal of respect especially from me, and I aspire to be in that situation.

I really wish there were a standard set of gender-neutral terms for him/his/hers/he/she and Mr./Ms./Mrs. Many have been tried, but there are a number of reasons that one specific set has not caught on.
I am aware of these gender-neutral pronouns but do not find an occasion to use them:
hir pronounced “here” and ze.
I think that the only way to make it common is to have to be taught in schools at a young age..

why making a fuss out of this thing?use what u prefer to use, as long as respect is present and u dont offend anyone, then thats acceptable in this aging society.

lolololololololololololooololololololololololololol I wort on your page

Great article indeed — extremely educational.
I may be the ’simplest’ of bloggers who commented before me, but I for one had no idea that “Mr.”/”Mrs.”/”Dr.”/etc. are comprised of the first and last letters of the words these ’short terms’ abbreviate. I at least got that from this article. Mistress and Master are past century referrals. Society evolution occurred and that’s great.

This didn’t make me laugh, it was kinda boring……. but i did learn something

Mr……….Mrs………..Miss……. funny right?

ha,ha…funny, yet interesting

I think that this is very sexist. It is basically saying that women are a property of men. I thought we had gotten father away from that horrible sexism. We should be able to have a title that means we are married to a man, but that means we are still our own person. We are not a ‘kept woman.’ It is very disheartening to find out the definition of this term.

I knew this. . . .but I think they’re all okay, because we rarely mean them in a derogatory way, now.

Interesting, though!

I have a PhD and am Dr W at work, and am just plain Heather outside that setting. I don’t mind being called Mrs W most of the time, as most people mean it in an affectionate way and my husband is the kind of man that one would like to be associated with… what annoys me is when I’m called Mrs Alex W… hello! I’m Heather, I may have married this man but I have not been subsumed into him as if I have now ceased to be myself.
I agree calling a woman ‘Ms’ is better as it is independent of marital status, although to my mind it still has an association with a single woman who feels too old to be called ‘Miss’. And I do pronounce it “Mz”, which sounds horrible.
So, my recommendation? Ladies, get yourselves a PhD!

WOW! This is really cool. Social studies is not really my thing, but this is interesting. I have to admit that the… ah… sexist as nicole put it did surprise me, but at that time it was better to be considered property of a man so that you could live in comfort and have his protection and food. I doubt most of them minded anyway, if they were married to someone they loved. Besides, we are past the sexist thing. The titles now have little more meaning than that you respect someone, even if it is just because they are older than you or to win favor. It’s not a bad thing to stick with.

Naomi, do you have discrimination for women? (I’m not a female)
This is not the middle ages! Both gender have the equal rights. I don’t think that people should care too much about the titles, too selfish-ish.

I enjoy being called Miss Inga for respect at work or even if my co-workers outside of work call me Miss Inga that’s OK. So it’s OK to call my bosses Mr. or Ms. with their first name. It’s a sign of respect. Otherwise we have lost sooo much respect for our elders.

naomi u go girl preach it to them i totally agree it meant master a long long time ago ms.feminist

Oh my goodness! I read about the first 25 comments and just had to stop and comment myself! Certain people need to just relax about this whole thing! People are taking it waaaaay too seriously. With all the actual serious issues facing our country today, whether someone calls me Ms. or Mrs. or Miss makes no difference to me! In fact, I have actually called myself Mrs. when retelling stories from students…and I’m not even married! Really, people, the article was meant to be a jaunty little bit of enlightenment on a rather mundane tradition, not something to sweat over or get angry about or rally others to your side in hopes of revolutionizing honorifics. I feel it was just meant to bring a smile to your face…and perhaps think a little on our history, culture, notions of respect, etc., which are important subjects to ponder, but let’s not get carried away! Think on it further, think about what respect means to you and how you show it and how you want it shown to you, but keep in mind that it seems a majority of readers didn’t know the derivation of these words, so probably, a good portion of the general public doesn’t either. Or if they do, they aren’t readily thinking about it on a conscious level, and thus, are most likely not offended by it. And, if they are, they have a lot of time on their hands to devote to such insubstantial matters; time that could be better used elsewhere…
…but, we are all allowed our opinions and allowed to get worked up if we want to…just be kind to each other, dictionary.com-mers…

Omg

I dont get it. Honestly this isnt funny

Naomi, it is you who sounds bitter. You sound angry about being old and angry that younger women enjoy more freedom so you try and put them down with insulting adjectives. It’s ironic that you go on about courtesy because you rant venomously. Shame on you, be the courtesy you wish to see in others.

lier, my teacher said it was miss and master!

Wow – a lot of radical egalitarians here. Apparently the desire to show respect where respect is due is somehow twisted into “snobbery.”

I sure hope the people who think respect is an outmoded concept don’t complain about being “dissed” at any point in their lives – there are few things worse than being a hypocrite.

for today’s society it is too formal kids these days will not call elders or anybody for that matter formally. My generation does not even seem to have manners some of us do like myself but other than a handful out of all the kids my age nobody shall call anyone formally like that. I wish more kids my age did instead of just sitting on there butts doing absolutely nothing!
Thank you.

Matt- WELL SAID

Yeah that rocks ms. :0

In those days, I suppose it was worth more than your reputation, perhaps even your life or your freedom, to address a person without acknowledging his/her place in society, or at least the worthiness of respect of an individual; hence the titles. But now it is entirely superfluous when all genders, races, nationalities, and even persons with no property and no job are accorded the same respect under the law, as well as are persons not yet at the age of majority (21 until very recently) and non-citizens of both the legal and illegal variety. Personally, I don’t think it is anyone’s damn business whether I am male, female, married or unmarried, landed or of voting age. If I am sane, legally allowed to conduct commerce, and have the price of doing business, I should not have to reveal anything else to the person with whom I wish to communicate or engage in a transaction. I particularly resent the on-line forms which do not allow you to skip the title, and force you to enter one of their optional forms of address. Whenever I get a piece of mail addressed to Mr or Ms, I know for sure it is NOT something I solicited to arrive at my domicile or my inbox. I have a name, a perfectly good name composed of two or more parts which identify me as an individual. One of those names I was given at birth, which I have chosen to keep, and one of those names I chose myself. If this is not sufficient, you do not need to address me at all.

A comment on the first post in this thread (by ‘Naomi’ [listed here as 'Naomi on June 7, 2011 at 4:22 pm'])

You covered a number of points, Naomi–good points, in my opinion. In fact I’d say you’ve nicely covered every point I find of value personally.

Several notes, though, on your post itself: you’ve got a misspelling in there, and an awkward word-form, both near the end of your first paragraph. I’m pointing thse out for the benefit of both you and for anyone else in the community who might be inclined to make the same mistakes.

In one sentence, you have the phrase “some surity and nicety in society.” ‘Surity’ is a misspelling of ’surety’, and ‘nicety’ is usually used in the plural, as, “the niceties in society.”

In the sentence before that one, you say ‘run a muck’. This should be written either as ‘run amok’ or ‘run amuck’ (which is a varient of ‘amok’).

Keep posting here, and keep writing! There is a budding eloquence in your style and vocabulary. Keep your final written product always polished by *always* running a spell-check or looking up anything you are unsure of .

@Anonymous
In your third paragraph, you wrote “thse” instead of “these”.

…And ending a sentence with a preposition (“or looking up anything you are unsure of”) is generally frowned upon.

(deliberate irony)

I can’t stand the abbreviation Ms. Ms. was started because a whole bunch of feminists came together. They were all hung up on not having a two-letter abbreviation for a surname, so they got a whole bunch of protests together and finally got Ms. A shameful surname made by crazy women.

I am only 15 years old and still use Mrs. Ms. Miss. and Mr. These are not too formal for our society. In all truth I believe more teenagers and minors all together, should be using these along with other manners, something some parents seem to have forgotten to teach their children. I go to a public school, and I am the only one who uses these contractions. I think, in this age/century, children and teens need to have this knowledge forced unto them. Being rude all of their life, using inappropriate language, and not having the right etiquette can really harm them in the long run.

^ ^
. . “Meow!!!” says Mrs Cat.
>.<

^ ^
. . “Meow!” says Mrs. Cat.
>.<

OMG! LOL! G2G!

Too mean Chris on March 23, 2012 at 12:06pm!
>_<

It’s simple: Mr. for males and Ms. for females. ‘Nuff said!

I think this was a nice little tid-bit of information. I enjoyed reading it, and I didn’t find anything offensive about the whole Mr. being derived from Master. As for being a ‘bitter young feminist’, I don’t necessarily give myself the title of ‘feminist’, but I do believe in speaking up when women’s rights are clearly being ignored.
And I’m not bitter, really. It was rude of you Naomi, to make that assumption of an entire group of people.
I am rather young though (at15 years old), but I like to think I know a thing or two more than your average teenager about social etiquette and politeness.

It IS hard though when a teacher assigns me a formal research paper, and I go to do the heading where I have to put her name and don’t know whether to put Mrs. or Ms.
Kinda awkward, if you ask me, haha

recall walker!!!

Quote: “I can’t stand the abbreviation Ms. Ms. was started because a whole bunch of feminists came together. They were all hung up on not having a two-letter abbreviation for a surname, so they got a whole bunch of protests together and finally got Ms. A shameful surname made by crazy women.”

…Um, Nooo, Ms AbbyS, it wasn’t “a shameful surname”; a surname is a family name, (like Smith, for example), and it’s origin wasn’t from shame, it’s origin was a centuries-old NEED to recreate the mysogynist termnology in a more positive mode; to get the boys of our world trained away from thinking it’s okay to denigrate women in their speech….because that habit degrades their behavior as they grow, until as adult men their casual verbal cruelties move away from verbal to physical. The habits of a lifetime determine what you become as an adult.
Your youth and ignorance of the long struggle for equality of the women who have gone before you ( and created your modern life’s liberties) have resulted in an appalling ignorance on your part– GROW UP, PLEASE.
You are doing yourself an enormous disservice, being so ignorant of, and an arrogant recipient of, the benefits so hard-won by those women you are so very eager to be disrespectful towards.

Let’s act our age, not our shoe size!

i dont get u guys r making me confuses with this mr and misses stuff………..um imma mr.polly

this article didn’t make me blush at all, nor laugh, in that matter. and I thought the article was full of useless information. I just wanted to know what “mrs.” means, not a whole history.

this article didn’t make me blush at all, nor laugh, in that matter. and I thought the article was full of useless information. I just wanted to know what “mrs.” means, not a whole history. look, no one cares.

Naomi, by reading this random, only vaguely gender-related article and feeling the need to immediately address your paranoid assumptions about what you imagine “bitter young feminists” will say, it is you that comes across as (embarrassingly) bitter.

There is one more gender-related aspect of titles that has stuck thru the ages = All official documents involving a married couple start with Mr. and then comes the Mrs. I for one have bought and sold all the houses we own. Yet all deeds/titles and correspondence comes back as Mr and Mrs. How about we all start saying MRS. and Mr. for a change. Meaning just reverse this 1) undignified hierarchy that only men officiate matters and 2) the antiquated hint that the husband is still the head of the family.

I disagree with most – the use of titles does nothing but promote class discrimination. My name is Jeanette, and I’m perfectly happy for you to call me Jeanette – How original, huh?!

“Sir” and “Ma’am” were not words that we used where I grew up in Michigan. I only associated those words with old movies and the military.

When my family moved to Texas, I experienced culture shock, beginning on my first day of school, when I was sent to the principal’s office for… I didn’t know. Asking my teacher a question?

Only after I was lectured by the principal did I find out that my crime was not calling my teacher “Ma’am ” I didn’t even know that I was supposed to call her “Ma’am.” Then the principal made the mistake of asking whether I would talk to my mother “that way.” The look on her face when she got her answer was priceless!

To this day, I still cringe when someone calls me “Sir.” Or for that matter, “mister.” I wouldn’t miss the honorifics if they were gone.

Someone else has probably posted this already, but … I don’t think this article is an accurate reflection of historical usage. Wasn’t Jane Eyre called “mistress”? But she was hardly anybody’s, well, you know, “mistress.”

Master is just what they called little boys back in the old days, okay? Seriously. Anyone confused needs to actually READ the articles and comments. Speaking of comments, this is the 737th, I think. Random, I know. ANYWAY, I did not blush or laugh when I read this article. What is so funny/embarrassing? By the way, SOMEBODY thinks we’re all from America, tsk,tsk! I know I’M NOT!
Till butter flies, sweethearts,
Moiself

While I agree that using a title to address a person is a polite sign of respect, I quibble with Naomi’s definition of what constitutes a moral. One can have exceptionally nice manners while also possessing atrocious morals. Ted Bundy springs to mind…

I was taught that Mrs. is the posessive form or Mr. like…Mr’s… because at the time women were typically considered the property of their husbands.

Not necessary to be so sensitive about these issues.
I know who I am and I am proud to be Mrs…. He knows I am not property. LOl

is it bad tht i realy dont get it….err why its so intresting..??

that is so funny

Karen, no offence but I’m pretty sure that’s not true.

I swear that after I read this I did not find anything funny. But it was still really helpfull. Oh, and there is a word the means to have fear to long words it is: HIPPOPOTOMONSTROSESQUIPPEDALIOPHOBIA.

They are ours….men own them…jk

Since everyone seems to be commenting that the younger generation has lost respect for everyone I feel it needs to be noted that I am part of that generation and I try to call people by the proper prefix (Mr. or Miss. or Mrs. or Ms. or Ma’am or Sir) I was raised to do so and I will continue to. It’s just polite. When I get older I hope that people still do that. I feel that it shows respect. I can’t even begin to imagine calling one of my teachers by their first name. they are respected adults and they deserve to have that distinction between my friends who are respected but get shown respect in another way, such as an approved nickname.(I say approved only to eliminate the situation of giving someone a nickname that they hate).

What I find annoying is not the use of the “titles” but the idiots who use the “titles” and don’t even look to see if the person is male or female. I was shopping once and a woman called me sir i’m assuming simply because I have a buzz. I was wearing a skirt and heels and am not manly looking. That I find disrespectful especially since I shaved my head to support a friend with cancer. Last time I checked some women have short hair and some have long just as some men have long hair and some have short. Why are we distinguishing between gender based on hairstyle?

I agree with Savannah and Zoe. I laugh a lot and that whole page is not funny or interesting at all!!!
It was simply a waste of my time!

@the girl with a buzz
I completely agree with you! I have short hair, but it is still a girly hairstyle. Some people are just so blind. I mean really, how many guys do you see wearing heels and a skirt?? No offense to crossdressers and transgenders and such, but still. Some people are so blind to the changing of society and still stick with their ancient stereotypes. And when I say ancient, I mean ancient. Down with stereotypes!!

I just realized I contradicted myself with the above comment. Sorry!!

OBAMA WAS HERE BROZ oops my slang language is coming back excuse meyoung foolish minds of theinternet im enjoying life so far so gtfo the computer and fill your minds with hope and exciting words in life everybody WE NEED CHANGE

This was not interesting and did not make me laugh. And what should I blush for? Anyway, I don’t think those titles are stupid but rather they are quite useless. People in schools call teachers/staff Mrs./Mr./whatever and they might not care at all about the person. They might even hate them. People don’t think a second thought about these titles. It’s like they’re apologizing to somebody and the world just comes suddenly. You don’t even think about it. It certainly doesn’t apply to a sense of respect or anything. Just saying. They are way overused. And it’s only in schools that you hear them most common. Other places you don’t and you still see people respect each other.

I’m sorry Naomi, but the term isn’t “run a muck”, it’s “run amok”. It’s pronounced the same way, but spelled quite differently, as you can see. -^_^-

LOL!!

I like Mr. and Mrs. in the fact that the show respect. The United States could use more respect in society. I believe children would grow up to be better people if they respected those around them more often. Even if you don’t like the person. I also agree that Mrs. is outdated and it could just be Ms. I don’t mind the source of the words at all.

HAH
LOL
IDIOTIC
SO FAKE

Titles: they’re more than just polite. Since the invention and use of titles, they have always denoted positions of authority. Not informational authority, no, but socio-political authority. In Rome, as has been brought up, the magister was *never* a member of the household, nor high enough in station to have authority over anyone other than his charges (magistra for the feminine). A “master”, or head of a household, was either “dominus” (lord) or “domina” (lady), but that was only true of those wealthy enough to actually own land and a house on it, rather than owe service, money, or whatever to those who do. That’s just Rome.

Mister, derived from master, derived blah blah blah Latin magister was itself a term not of politeness but to show station in English. Mistress the same. It shows a station of authority.

Should there still be such titles? Doctor => Dr., even? The thing to remember, which some of the commenters have forgotten or perhaps were not even aware, is that such titles aren’t about knowledge, but authority. As long as we recognize that there are different stations and levels of authority in a society, the titles have to stay. The only way to do away with them is to make everyone equal in power. True democracy espouses this, as does true communism, both of which have proved unattainable by human society because we are not all exactly equal. Everyone is best at something, but not everyone is best at the same things. That’s why we recognize different positions and stations of ability, and within those abilities we recognize different positions of authority.

That said…

As far as modern use of Mr., Mrs., Ms., or Miss as honorifics for just anyone, I personally think it’s ridiculous. As soon as a male reaches the age of majority, he becomes a Mister? See above for my protest that titles are based on authority. The Mister has become meaningless; an affectation of a time that nobody remembers. If every man is a Mister, then no man needs the title. Because of the differences of meanings, at least women have titles that mean something, even though that meaning is attached to whether or not the woman is herself attached to a man.

Should there be an honorific to address someone in politeness? Sure. After all, it is the civil convention. Why tie it to gender, which is really just a roll of the dice at birth anyway? We have castes, even if mentioning it seems to upset more delicate sensibilities. How about economic divisions! Vgt, Bru, Linc, Mid., and so on for Vagrant, Bureau (as in collecting unemployment from), Low Income, Middle Income, and so on. It’s gender blind and still changeable by marital status, depending on if your spouse bleeds your pocket book or adds to the balance.

Of course I’m being ridiculous now, but whatever.

Vgt Devin signing off.

im just a kid but that is very interestind dont ya’ll think?

I did not blush, whoever wrote this, but I actually never knew that so that is actually quite fascinating, coming from a 12 year old girl. I have told many others this, and almost all of them had the same reaction. Almost.

Umm…not funny.

I’ve got no problem using Mr. or Ms. when addressing others (provided I know their sex; Mr./Ms. otherwise). But for myself, I prefer not to use a title at all. Why can’t people just call me by name (which I provide), without using a title?

It bothers me that people feel a need to know my sex before talking with me, although I understand that not knowing my sex leaves them unable to decide which pronouns to use when referring to me. The real culprit here is English’s forcing everyone to use pronouns with gender. What we need is a good set of genderless pronouns (something like “it”, but one that will not cause people to feel insulted when referred to by the pronouns).

It bothers me even more that many websites require you to provide a title when you create an account. I don’t WANT to be referred to as Mr. or Ms. and I have not earned Dr. These websites should not require one to choose a title from their short list; they should allow users to type in our own titles or, even better, leave the field blank.

I really don’t like feminists.

Ms. C_

I have use women’s first names in the workplace, not out of disrespect, but because I was unsure whether to use Ms. for a married woman, or Ms. only for an unmarried woman. I didn’t want to use Mrs. when I wasn’t sure if she were married or not. I work for a very large company and have to correspond with women who are strangers to me, and in the past, this unsurety about proper use of Ms. for a married woman, led me to ‘cop out’ form using any title, and just call them by their name in the directory or from their signature on an email. However, after reading this article, I will confidently use Ms. for all.

ok, simply one question what is the difference between “ms.” and “miss”? i have always heard them pronounced the same, i assumed “ms.” was just the abreviated version of “miss” like “mrs.” is the abreviation of “misses” and yet people are differentiating between them, how would u even distinguish when speaking, only in written form can the difference be noticed

p.s. whats with all this naomi hate, everyone is hating on this one person for one statement, “bitter young feminists”, why not hate on all the other controversial statements, unless you are just too lazy to read past the first post

So what exactly was supposed to make me blush/laugh? The meaning of Mrs. is a “married woman,” but originally meant “female teacher, or governess”. Big deal.
And what’s all this talk about feminism about anyway?

By the way,
I LOVE YOUR ANSWER VGT DEVIN!!!!!!!!!!!!

What I know is that everything changes. The meaning is old and people don’t call Mr. or Mrs. as Master or Mistress, now in our society we say it to be respectful. Which is hard to find in our society. I say, keep it.

Weeeeeiiiird

.. Hi im AWKWARD. who are you?

im A_ _ _ _
can you guess my name?
~AWKWARD.~
*troll face*

I ♥ ICP!!!

Ummm….what is this article about exactly? I don’t understand all those fancy words.

oh wow!

Really… I didn`t even laugh!!!!!!!!!

Personally I think many are off the mark when saying the use of title is somehow deferential in status to the other person – for me it is simply a more formal way of addressing someone you don’t know personally, who you are not on ‘first name terms’ with. Therefore it’s useful, and carries no implication that the person being addressed is a ‘better’.

that intersting

jackie’s explanation was much easier to understand.

BTW : not funny!

P.S it was not 8:20.it was 11:20.

Like, I already knew?

How are you supposed to know if the woman who is talking to you is married or not???!!!

Um…how was this exactly supposed to make me laugh or blush? The explanations are what I thought they would be.
And to all you people talking about feminists- big deal! Times were different back then. Women were “property” to men. Just because we still use those terms doesn’t mean we still think that way. These were the terms people used back when women were not as free to be themselves. We use them now because it would be stupid and silly to change them now to fit modern times, because, believe me, we’d be changing them a lot. Thanks for reading.

By the way I’m only 14. Sigh. Still a “miss” for a few more years.
And you people should really learn to spell.

I like to use all titles as a way of showing respect. I don’t have to analyze someone to find out it they deserve respect, I can choose to show it. We have become a casual society instead of a culture of honor. When we stop worrying about whether or not someone deserves our respect and instead just choose to honor those around us, we in turn honor ourselves. We demonstrate to young people, who may be calling their parents by their first name, how to demonstrate honor and respect. It really doesn’t hurt, try it! It also gives that person the opportunity to tell you how they want to be addressed and isn’t that the point after all?

Perhaps we’re all over thinking this a bit? I, for the record find it nice that some people still have a small bit of civility in them. Honourifics definitely are traditional and cultural. Why do we need to change our traditions because it might offend somebody? With all this worry about being politically correct, people are losing sight of history tidbits like this. I think it’s quite beautiful to hear someone properly addressed.

hey bubba joe whats your problem!

im confused

WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

with you strong the force is

It is my personal belief that basic feminism is sorta wrong. Many feminists simply wish for more rights for women, ignoring the prejudice against men, such as the draft. Gender equality is still important, but the basic idea of supporting one sex isn’t equal at all.

TOO LONG POST

Hmm, I don’t know what to think about this. In a school environment in the US, Mr. and Ms., regardless of marital status, are always used. I have yet to hear a student call a teacher “Mrs.”

That said, however, outside of the school environment, calling a married woman “Ms.” may be frowned upon, and “Mrs.” is considered the correct form of address.

Crazy

how is this supposed to make us laugh or blush?

No one ever calls an adult man master but willingly reduce adult women to the child level of a miss. People don’t see how derogatory Miss and Mrs are. At least married women don’t have to reduce themselves and loose their surname in my country, and get to add their surname first or second after the childs given ( not neccesarily christian ) name. Nothing wrong with a double barrel surname. Dinosaurs think there is, only dinosaurs. Who can be very young oness too unfortunately.

stop posting this story to your homepage. the only reason it gets so many clicks is that the headline is horribly misleading.

how it supposed to make us blush but besides that interesting story.

I’m a miss.

Ms. denotes respect when you do not know the womans marriage status. Many professional women prefer Ms. over Mrs. as it sounds more the equivalent of Mr.

I was taught that Miss and Master used to be for the children of a household, and Mister and Missus for the parents. If the woman was divorced or a single woman, then she was Mistress – sort of an adult Miss. Madame was for older women, or widows….you always showed the most respect to the oldest people, so Ma’am was the most respectful term, Mrs. for a married woman, and Ms. for any other female. Poor men, they were Sir for formal, and Mr. any other time. I think that’s still what most people use.

@v8 wild don’t you think intent of use has more meaning than anything else? Bizarre that you would hold a child accountable for his misuse of a word or words. If someone doesn’t “see how derogatory Miss and Mrs. are” then why would you hold it against them? Glad to know you are better than the rest of us cave-people. for future reference, “in my country” we can do whatever we want with our names. Women do hold onto the unmarried name after they get married. My sister-in-law and my wife both did that. They are both non-Hispanic European descent (Scottish, English and German, English), and they married men of non-Hispanic European (German, English) descent. Quit hating and grow up.

I think we should start using new terms to address people anyway. Something like “Good” (as in “Good Smith”) for unmarried men and “Better” (as in “Better Smith”) for unmarried women. As long as married men and women are prefaced with “Best” (as in “Best Smith” or “Best Smiths”). I like that. I think I’ll start it up.

-”Best” Orton

?????????????

However you decide to address someone, it all depends on your intent. I don’t know of anybody today who uses Mrs. or Ms. or Miss as derogatory. To me, most people of our generation use whatever they’ve grown up knowing as polite (or sometimes just what isn’t not polite I guess).

Good to know that males were masters in those days

that did not make me LOL

I agree with Naomi. Our elders deserve to be shown some respect. Nowadays, people have completely lost all respect for their elders, teachers, parents, peers, and even younger people. Your elders have been alive a lot longer than you have and they have been through a lot more than you have. Many of them did not grow up in such a good environment as you did, and many of them were not as priveleged as you are. Children in modern times are given electronics with which to amuse themselves rather than listen to other people. It used to be that is people were bored (and that was rare, with all their chores and all the work that had to be done to keep the household running smoothly), they would go listen to their elders tell stories. There was no such thing as a computer or a phone. Now that technology is so advanced, all politeness is being obliterated. You would be hard-put to find somebody nowadays who will be courteous to their elders, and even harder-put to find somebody who treats everyone with respect.

Remember this the next time you take out your phone at the dinner table, or start texting somebody when you are bored. There are many other, better ways to amuse yourself. Try looking on websites to find old-fashioned games. You’ll be surprised. Many of them are quite fun, though simple, and most can be played with commonly found items about the house, so they will cost you nothing.

that didn’t make me blush or laugh

whoa so that means women are 2nd class treated?

I have been called Miss (Ms.) Jean at places of employment since I was in my mid-thirties. I didn’t mind, because I knew the people with which I worked respected me. I am incensed when a telemarketer calls and addresses me by Jean. We haven’t met and I am probably old enough to be their grandmother, so give me a little respect, please. Some say they are told to do that because it denotes familiarity. I don’t want to be familiar with someone I haven’t met, thank you very much.

I think they’re archaic… “Mr” means “master” and “Mrs” means “mistress” … great. Sexist, classist, derogatory. I think the fact that nobody today means them in that way and only want to show respect is great, so I feel like a replacement is necessary. They mean one thing but say another. I’ve never liked the fact that women need to be classified as married or unmarried either, while males are uniformly “Mr”

Just call me by my name: Sarah Smith. Whether I’m married or unmarried is of no consequence to anyone. If you must use a title, use Ms (but without the embarrassment or awkwardness that usually accompanies it). Never, ever ask me “Is that Miss or Mrs?” as you will get both barrels in response. Do not default to Mrs or Miss but to Ms.

CONFUSED…

OK I would rather be respected and be the Mistress of the house THIS ARTICLE IS STUPID

that is just so STUPID

I looked at every piece of ID in my wallet and not a one of them had a Mrs. or Ms. printed on it. Therefore I am Dianne, like the paperwork shows.

I really enjoy how easily derailed we become by some passive-aggressive comment about feminism. I’ll jump right on board with this.

This isn’t about feminism unless you want to make it about feminism. It’s about whether or not specific honorifics still hold merit in current society. Is the anti/pro feminism agenda really necessary here? It all depends on how one interprets words, and I find that to be a much more substantial topic regarding the nature of the titles in question.

If one demands or finds it necessary for me to refer to them as “sir” or “madam,” I believe personal motivation is a needed prerequisite. I need a pertinent reason to honor someone with a title. The fact it’s slung around so callously demeans any sort of actual respect the title would otherwise entail. I wouldn’t even call it an honorific anymore as much as some kind of mutant preposition. The fact we use them so frequently without prior consideration deprives them of any “respect” or “appreciation” and becomes an exercise in entitlement.

I’d say let’s change it up a bit, keep people thinking and continue the evolution of our language.

I don’t understand. What’s the big deal? That article made no sense. Please explain.

I do not think that looking at the history of honorifics makes a difference to weather or not we should use them. Does it matter that the history of these honorifics are not socially accepted today, when what we actually use these terms for has evevolved so much that they no long hold the same meannig as they originally did? Not to say history isn’t important, however when consulting certain aspects of things I believe it should be overlooked or outweighed.

it just makes sense that way

Nice

I have a habit of calling people by whichever name I heard first. Thus, I always called my teachers with their last name and no title. It didn’t make a difference, so I called them that because it’s shorter than adding Mr or Mrs to it.

Or I don’t call people by their names at all, just do something else to get their attention, whatever works…

wow….surprisingly interesting

Ms. was never used until the late 1980’s, when the NOW group decided using anything remotely hinting at a man, was verbotten, and, to further dumb down American students.

“Miss” is proper English, when referring to a girl whose marital status is unknown, or, just used in general for a girl.

Mr., Mrs., and, Miss, are proper titles. Not “Ms”.

( I could explain further, but, this is enough for now )

i think that mrs. and mr. is the proper way to address a married woman or any married man or any man older than you assuming that you are under the age of eighteen. ms. i believe is the proper way to address a woman if you dont kno or she doesnt want you to know and miss is the proper way to address a girl under eighteen or college unmarried girl. if im addressing a friend i typically just say their first name ar call them dude or use direct address, but i would never refer to my friend as miss chong or whatever, that would be weird.

okay. THAT. DOES. NOT. MAKE. ME. BLUSH. OR. LAUGH!!

No blushing occured, just a hearty laugh at Naomi’s expense. Ive never seen such a backlash.

How about we just drop titles altogether, and just refer to each other as Hm.?? As in Human? Or Pn as in person?

It is these definitions of ourselves which causes anger and friction… honorifics are labels, labels say “this” is different to “this”. Have we not come beyond this as a species?

Surely the Jean/Jean, Billys/Billies, Gabriel/Gabreille would learn to understand and not be offended.

The use of titles such as Mr, Master, Mrs or Miss has always been something which is seen simply as a mark of respect. At least by anyone who has been taught any basic manners.

To clarify the basics for some who seem a little confused: a male over the age of 18 is Mister. A male under the age of 18 is still Master (if you’re not sure, check any legal documentation & you will see it clearly states this). An unmarried female is Miss & a married female is Missus. Ms didn’t even come into circulation until the 70s’ & 80s’, when feminism was reaching a ridiculous level.

We need to keep respect & manners alive & well. Someones’ title may appear only a small thing, but something such as this can prove to be a catalyst. This is a foundation for teaching our children basic courtesy. We can then shape them into well rounded, respectful, polite citizens.

Those who are offended by the term Mrs honestly must have an identity issue. At the risk of sounding cynical, it almost appears that those who wish to be Ms may have an issue with their marital status. As if they are attempting to hide in case a better option comes their way. When most women marry they are proud to take their husbands’ name & become Mrs. For those who do not wish to change their name, why should they change their title. That appears a little hypocritical & contradictory doesn’t it?

I for one do not like the term Ms, it sounds like an annoying insect. I do however, appreciate when anyone uses my proper title, Mrs. I also appreciate having a gentleman hold a door or lift for me, or an offer of help if they can see it is of use & I always ensure that I show my gratitude in return.

In conclusion, although on the surface it may appear incidental. This topic really is much deeper than many may realize. No matter age, race, gender or creed.

I prefer Mo. for mojito, Ma. for margarita, etc.
_aleph_

Oh yeah, let’s not forget “Mtwasomfot” for Mai Tai with a shot of Malibu floated on top.
_aleph_

didnt make me blush at all.

I really think that I’d like to keep Mr. and Ms., simply because it’s easier to know whether your teacher will be a man or a woman, and because It’s easier to not have to ask your friend’s mom or dad what their name is! But it would also be nice to have a word for both, so that when you write essays or anything like that you could simply write h. instead of him/her, and one term would be nice for all women. Besides, when girls are called “miss” nowadays, it usually means they did something wrong. If my teacher said she wanted to talk with “miss Emma”, I’d think, “uh oh”. But really, you don’t need a title to show respect. “Sorry” said in a sullen tone would imply, “I’m not sorry but someone forced me to say it.”

Speaking as a 12 year old girl who sometimes uses “gay” to mean happy (I read classics alot)

And, to those who said it didn’t make them blush or laugh, I personally find it ironic that while “mistress” is nowadays used as a woman who’s having an affair with a married man, “Mrs.” is used as a married woman.

In the south, we call everyone “Miss,” no matter how old they are or if they are married or not. Nobody ever gets offended. I don’t even see why it’s a big deal if someone calls you Mrs… It’s not derrogatory to be married. Some people just have to get upset about everything, I guess.

Cracka mofos y’all jus make it “niggaz” an “hoz” an evethang be evethang

I read somewhere that a Mistress is what lies inbetween a Mister and a matress. Whas it Oscar Wilde?

In regards to women we shouldn’t concern ourselves with such superfluous things as by what title we’ll address them, as long as they can make decent coffee.

Miss E.

I am sorry, but you are a blindingly ignorant and very rude person. Believe it or not, the world does not revolve around smug little you. We live in the modern world, and there are excellent reasons for the use of the fairly modern term Ms. 1) in business correspondence, sometimes a person writes and you do not know their marital status, but you do know the person is female. It is inappropriate to guess, and no ‘Miss’ wants people to assume she is married and people who are married and prefer ‘Mrs.’ do not wish to be called ‘Miss.’ Therefore, if one doesn’t know it solves a lot of problems to honor the person by referring to them as ‘Ms.’ If they have an issue with your company and you have to refer their letter to someone else – -you are most likely to have to include a cover letter to the person you forward the complaint to, and you will need to refer to him/her — without the Ms, the person who gets the referral may ‘assume’ that Chris Smith is a male, when in fact that might not be the case. Would you enjoy being a ‘Chris Smith’ (female) who was referred to a third party as ‘him’ because the person assumed you were male? I think not.
2) Sometimes professional women choose to keep their business names rather than chance losing custom. They may well be known by both their maiden names and/or married name. But for business they might definitely prefer their maiden name. If you were an architect/accountant/Dr. and did not marry until well after your practice was established, would you want to chance losing business because your customer didn’t get notice of your name change? Or got notice and forgot your new name? Or you moved your place of business across town and they haven’t dealt with you for a while? It is also a long standing practice of actresses to continue to use their same name in the profession as well. ‘Miss Elizabeth Taylor’ was certainly easier to keep track of professionally than trying to remember which ‘Mrs’ she was at any given time!
3) people who use Ms. should not automatically be assumed to be some sort of lesbian feminazi. There are a whole lot of real life situations for which Ms. solves a lot of problems. In my own case I was quite happy to be Miss X for all my 50+ years. To cut a long story short, I met and married a man from a different country – we were engaged, but in that period, he was diagnosed with brain cancer. We moved up our wedding date. I was involved with (and still am involved in) a long protracted battle regarding my visa. The judge ruled in my favor to stay in country, but the visa has yet to be given. During this time my husband died. While my visa was undergoing consideration I could hardly change my last name to that of my husbands. [Indeed at my age, that could further complicate things back home in the US -- never put it past the Social Security People to screw something up and screw you out of your SSI bennies when your time comes.] In other words, I could hardly swap horses of last names while in midst of a legal battle. So what I am I now? I am hardly a ‘Miss’ being a widow. Nor am I a ‘Mrs’, formally, having not had the opportunity to take my husband’s last name [Though informally if someone addresses me by Mrs. Husband's last name, I am not offended.] I am certainly not Mrs. Maiden Name. As it happens Ms. happens to be the best solution. And I’d thank you to keep your ignorant opinions about life and manners to yourself.

I know this is long, but it seems that teaching school children how titles are used has gone out, unfortunately, with the bath water. Time was, along about the 4th grade or so, we were taught basic correspondence usage, and how to address people formally. Mister was for all men who were grownups. Today we’d call that 18 or so. It is used in speech when you don’t know the person well, and used as a title in business correspondence. Mrs. was a married woman of any age (pronounced Missus) and Miss was for a woman of ANY age whom you knew was not married. ‘Ms’ is new, but does solve a lot of problems – particularly in the business world where one needs to show respect – but does not know. IT is pronounced ‘Miz’. In certain regions of the US Mrs. /Ms/ Miss depending on the accent of the person all may come out as ‘Miz’. [This is so especially in the south.] Master at one time was used in correspondence for young boys, but has fallen into disuse. When trying to get the attention of an adult in public (say they’ve dropped something) if you say ‘Excuse me ma’am/sir’ this is ALWAYS polite and correct. Superiority/inferiority should not be assumed. For people under 18 for boys, you’d simply say: ‘Excuse me, young man….’ or ‘Excuse me, Miss…’ for girls.

I am sorry Ms. can be such a hand grenade for some people, but it needn’t be. Never ‘assume’ too much. You’ll look like an ass.

whoa interesting!!!

LOL!!!!

Naomi,
My daughter sacrifices her 34 yr. life everyday in the military in ways very few civilians can comprehend because they don’t put their lives on the line everyday. So if you want to refer to feminists as young and bitter, go right ahead and ingore the flak. A huge price is being paid daily for the freedom of thought and speech and I respect your right to your opinion in spite of who disagrees.

ms is short for monseur

i didnt know this, (which is the first thing i never knew) i also didnt know about robots being passive. THAT`S BECAUSE THEY`RE NOT!

i am the very best, that no one ever was….

Never would have guessed. thats so cool

that is correct i agree with naomi

that right i agree with Naomi

I kind of already knew this. But they act like there is only one word currently used to refer to men, “mister”, when in truth, “master” is still used. “Mister” is for older or married men and “master” is used for younger or unmarried men. Although “mister” is more common, in formal settings, paperwork, or invitations “master” is sometimes used. but then again, I’m from the south, so people are usually referred to by their title. I couldn’t imagine it any other way. I wouldn’t be comfortable with referring to say a teacher by their first name. With adults I’m comfortable with, I usually use their title and first name.
I love using titles, but I tend to only use them for people over 30. I use “Ms.” for any woman I’m not sure is married or not. But saying “Miss’ or “Mrs.” is more fun.
Fun fact: something like this happened with the Spanish language too. “usted”, which is the formal word for you. Used to be longer and mean “your majesty’, and could only be used with royalty, but in time more and more people started using it and it got shortened. That is why it has to be conjugated in the 3rd person instead of the 2nd person like the other form of you “tu”, because it is referring to that person’s majesty (idea) not the actual person.
I have the coolest Spanish teacher ever. She acted out this story.

Well, I know that a lot of people want to do away with “Miss” and “Mrs.” and just stick with “Ms.” I even understand why, people don’t like the idea of the distinction in status. I however would totally embrace the distinction. I am not married now but I know that when I am married I will be proudly telling everyone I see that I am “Mrs. so-and-so” I can totally picture shouting to the world that I am my husband’s wife.
(Totally sappy, I know. I am and forever will be a HOPELESS romantic) *Sigh*

You guys are seriously still arguing with Naomi? Personally, it looks to me that she targeted a SPECIFIC group of young feminists with her comment. Not all young feminists are bitter, but she specifically stated “BITTER”, as in the ones who actually ARE bitter. Those who just continue to take offense to such a comment are just asking for a hot debate, and some are even looking to be called foolish.

On to the honorifics, I say we keep them. They’ve been there for since before we were born, right? Why change them? They’ve become a usual part of our everyday vocabulary, and in turn have become embedded in our brains. Not to mention that the distinction keeps us from getting confused, in my eyes. Mr., Ms., Mrs, and Miss are a part of what we say every day, not to mention their meanings have kind of altered over the years, so keep them, and save the trouble of messing up a perfectly okay vocabulary.

Back to those getting offended by previous comments, just drop it. The ones getting offended by the “bitter” part of Naomi’s comment are just being totally irrational, from what I can see. I may be an 18 year old male myself, and not understand the whole feminist movements completely and such, but I’ve seen enough of this kind of thing going on to make this kind of judgment. Just let it go before it gets even worse, and save yourselves from looking even worse than you do now. Naomi could have worded it differently than she meant, so think about the many possibilities of the meanings behind one’s speech before throwing a fit and getting angry and bent out of shape over something so minor as a misunderstanding.

Really Naomi? Bitter young feminists? I suppose you would still have us females wearing petticoats, long dresses, and corsets! I believe respect is required, but just saying Ms. and Mr. is just as respectful! Plus it shows equality! Believe it or not women are equal to men, If I can tell that at 13 you should be able to at your age! If people like Naomi were in charge I wouldn’t be allowed to wear pants!

P.S. I show respect not through titles (although I still use them) but through my actions! If you call someone Ms. or Mr. then treat them like crap you did not show respect to them regardless of the title.

H

Yep, I call my wife mistress.

That is really weird, yet cool

What words meant a hundred or so years ago and what they mean now are often not related to one another. One of the original definitions of “husband” is “male slave” , and one of the original definitions of “wife” is “female slave” . I’m sure many married (& divorced ) couples might find this humorous, but the meanings of words, proper or slang, always evolve over time. The meaning of “Mrs.” is now the direct opposite of what it once meant. And, just for the record, I happen to like the use of the term “Ms.” . “Mr.” does not indicate whether or not the man is married; why should a woman be instantly identified by whether or not she is married? Times for women have changed drastically. We are our own persons, and our value should not, and is not, associated with whether or not we are married.

Chaz – I call mine “Sir”

I think using the title Mrs. shows respect for marriage itself, which is a fundamental part of society. Since many women change their last name when they get married it makes sense to have a different title. That way I know Mrs. Jane Smith is her married name, whereas Miss Jane Johnson was her maiden name. I am married and am honored to take my husband’s last name, as well as the title Mrs. when I’m being addressed by strangers and children. I also don’t have a problem being addressed as Ms. or Ma’am, if people don’t know my marital status. Obviously, then, it makes sense for men to have one title, Mr., since they do not change their names when they get married.

I’ll admit that I may be all by myself here, but don’t like to be called “Mister.” I find it offensive. Unless somebody wants to have sex with me, my gender should be irrelevant for most purposes. Personally, I’d like to see gender specific forms of address eliminated.

Also, the proper official form of address for warrant officers in the US Army, at least when I was serving, was “Mister.” It didn’t make any difference whether the warrant officer was male or female. A female cadet with whom I trained did not want to be called “Ma’am.” She made it clear that she would prefer to be called “Sir.” Sadly, that may have been one reason she didn’t accept her commission. I think she’d have been a great officer. Why should a person have to be saddled for life with a hated title that serves no useful purpose whatsoever?

I recently heard Neil Bortz on the radio tell a caller not to call him “Mister,” because it was a title he had not earned. I agree. I ask people either to call me by my first name or, if they must use a title, to address me either as “Colonel” or “Doctor.” I’ve earned both of those. Interestingly, while on active military duty, I once asked the principal of a school attended by two of my children to address me by my military rank rather than by “Mister.” He was offended by my request. I guess I was just supposed to smile and pretend that I liked it.

Also, many years ago, I had invited a woman who had been a babysitter for me for years to spend some time with us and to bring her teenage daughter along to give her room to breathe while going through a divorce. I asked her daughter not to call me “Mister.” Her mother insisted that she do so, notwithstanding my objection. Her point was that she wanted to teach her daughter to show respect for adults. I fail to see how addressing a person in a way that person finds offensive could possibly be construed as showing respect, especially after having been told that it was found offensive. I’ve never heard from that woman again.

Quite early in these comments, a businesswoman wrote that she’d not do business with a person who didn’t address her as “Mrs.” I’m guessing she and I would find it somewhat difficult to establish or maintain a professional relationship, since her adamantly stated preference is completely incompatible with mine. Perhaps we could compromise by using job titles as a form of address.

I believe the term mrs. is short for Midget Riders Sing

instead of trying to settle on one term to use for women, perhaps it is time to consider why is it so important that men and women have different titles? this only emphasizes how important gender is in society, which is the biggest problem at all. everyone seems caught up with the semantics, but what needs to be recognized is that gender should not be so instrumental in social interactions,it is only limiting one’s potential. it is time for people to live beyond male and female, to exist as they wish to without the constraints of their gender role dictating their place and actions within society.
everyone should stop bickering over the whole mr/s. ms. and miss thing. it’s silly, there shouldn’t only be one title, there should be none. one should not be referred to by their gender, in a professional, formal, public, or any setting really. it’s the 21st century, whether or not one is a male or female doesn’t matter, so why even acknowledge it?

Well said, jane does!

Compared to what derogatory words we use today, its not derogatory at all. I always figured Missus meant a formal requirement for someone who is better than you, like “sama” in Japanese. Well, now I know the truth.

NICE,VERY INTERESTING

I agree with you Shanay. I also think that we should be BFFs with each other because we have the same opinion. Yo. Rock on Forever Shanay my good friend…I hope. <3

I disagree with jane does. I do not feel that it is at all sexist to distinguish between the two. I prefer to use first/nicknames when speaking to a person i know well like my friends and family, Mr./Ms. when referring to someone whose last name is known to me, and sir/ma’am when referring to someone whose last name is not known (except when responding like “aye aye sir/ma’am” or its equivalent in military settings)

Also, I prefer Mr. and Ms. when a person has not yet earned a title such as Dr. or if I am uncertain if they have earned a title.

I prefer Master for a male under 14-16 y.o., Miss for a female under 14-16 y.o. unless married of course. I prefer Mr. and Mrs. as honorific. For business and where marital status isn’t known I use Ms. for female.
As a physician, I find the title Dr. used less and less. Just Mr. or nothing. I am not sticky about “honorifics” but why? In Georgia I like “Sir” “Dearie” and even “Homey!”–under the right circumstances!

Question: How do I address a business letter where the sex (“gender” is a grammarical term) is unknown? Do I use “Mr/Ms”?
Question: If you don’t like Mistress what do you use with Madam/Ma’am?

In general, I agree with Naomi

I do not think that anything has to be done about “women’s rights” and subjects similar to that. We can just let people speak what is comfortable for them, because forcing people to use language is a little harsh. We can just wait for the future to see if the tradition is gone, because who cares if it is? And who cares if it’s not?
And a word to the females, who cares about how much rights you get? Women have the right to vote, own land, go to school, even get a job! I mean, you’re going to sit around there saying that men should have a Msr. Or Mrr just because women have a Mrs. and a Ms. too? That’s ridiculous! It’s a few letters! No more than 3! Men discriminated women in the past, but it’s no reason to be mad over a few words! Like someone said, there was a time when women referred to their husbands as LORDS! And now you have a Mrs. and Ms. to determine if a women is married or not and you don’t like that.
And everyone who thinks tradition should be kept, not all traditions need to be kept because they’re traditions! They’re not something like how you should breath (everybody knows that, or at least everyone who’s ALIVE), it’s just something like your seat at the kitchen table. It’s nothing to be paranoid about. Today, would you refer to “gay” as happy? Well, in my opinion, not to be offensive, but at least 1 out of 3 would think you were crazy. And women who referred to their husbands as lords, at least 1 out of 3 would think the women are crazy. So why stress out with Mr. or Mrs?
In conclusion, I think that we should not do anything to Mr. or Mrs. And that includes forcing people to use those words, standing up for women’s “rights”, or abolishing it. (I don’t know if somebody is allowed for a word to be banned). We should wait for the result; if it is something like referring to gay as happy, or if it is something like using the words the and I and etc. There is NOTHING to worry about!

Bitter young feminist?

Crotchety old traditionalist?

These honorifics are falling out of use among the younger generations, we are less formal than our predecessors. The etymology of the word from centuries ago doesn’t bother me, knee jerk Naomi and her “bitter young feminists” on the other hand…

As for how I address people, I feel out their vibe (you can usually tell if someone wants to be called Mr. or Mrs. or by their first name) and proceed accordingly. Outside of a professional environment I don’t see myself addressing someone my age (27) with a title of any kind (unless they’re a doctor… that’s another discussion vis a vis people going into medicine for prestige rather than as a calling to save lives; I know quite a few doctors).

I wouldn’t like to be called ma’am, and my last name is something people furrow their brow at so I prefer to use my first name. One thing I can assure you, this young feminist will never be addressed by Mrs. [His Full Name].

It boils down to this: Address people how they want to be addressed. If someone says, “Please, call me Sam.” don’t continue to call him Mr. Prenderville, and vice versa.

PS: Not wanting to be referred to by an honorific does not qualify anyone as a misanthrope, as put forward by Neal. Neal, look up the word, we’re on dictionary.com. Does not wanting to be referred to as Miss/Ms./Mrs. mean someone hates humanity? That’s a bit of a stretch.

D- for improper use of a thesaurus. Can we ban thesauruses (thesauri?)? The nuance and subtle shades of meaning are what make words so excellent. This is completely lost when someone goes bumbling through the thesaurus trying to sound smarter than they are. And the “I” crowd… using “I” when “me” is appropriate is counterproductive for your intentions. Sorry for the rant!

Miss = young, unmarried woman (18 or younger, unless she specifically requests that you use Miss with her)
Mrs. = Married woman who shares a last name with her husband
Ms. = unknown marital status; married but does not share a last name with husband; divorced, but shares a last name with ex-husband; unmarried but chooses not to be called “Miss”

Always use Ms. with a woman, out of respect, unless she asks to be called something different. Just one or two letters makes a difference, trust me. I am not a Mrs. or a Miss!

I don’t mind calling people Mr. or Ms. for the sake of formality. When I’m addressing emails to strangers, it feels weird to use their first name, and it would be even stranger to call them by last name without a title.

i did not laugh

I completely agree with Luther. But maybe a woman’s title is for the man to see if she is married or not…

i hope you received my comment you nasty people

HAHA this did not make me laugh nor blush and plz i did not even get it

I left a dAMN COMMENT

An awefull lot of noise over a very useful tradition
When women choose a life partner they make their decision known by changing their title from Miss to Mrs and usually taking their husbands family name. This makes it clear that other men should keep their distance. Miss is generally associated with youth and innocence so how can this be considered an insult or demeaning. Ms suggests a woman is neither young , innocent or married. Most societies value innocence .
So why is Mr always Mr. Since society expects men to approach women as potential partners then his status is not in question, he knows if he is married or not, if he’s married he should not approach the woman.
A statement of youth and innocence where men are concerned is considered demeaning most societies expect their men to be experienced and through that experience capable. Thus the term Master is often rejected by young men as demeaning.
Experience in men and innocence in women these are the qualities that societies value and the distinction in the titles will be needed until societies no longer value these attributes i for one think that that will be a sad day for us all.
One last thing, in social situations it is the women not the men who set the standards, Men generally adapt their behaviour either to please their wives or to attract women of course there are exceptions .

I certainly agree that these courtesy titles should remain in use. I was taught to always respect my elders (even if I really did know better). However, why is it that a medical doctor nearly always addresses his or her patients by their first name and yet expects to be called “Dr. Smith”? If I’m supposed to address a stranger as “Mr. Johnson” or “Mrs. Harris”, why on earth do physicians think it is alright to address their patients by their first names?

The politically INcorrect truth is that England, France, the Germanics, the Chinese and the Russians brought the world from the stone age to the space age and did so within social constructs of respect and honorifics. The other hard, brutal, politically incorrect truth is that future Americans will probably not still use titles. Ultimately 99% of them will live in grass huts and be on welfare.

Wow interesting yet……..Strange!

:0

This article is appallingly under-researched and over-written.

For example:
“By the early 17th century, Mr., Mrs. Ms. and Miss became part of English vernacular, creating an awkward socio-linguistic discrepancy.”

In addition to the sentence being so poorly written as to be nearly meaningless (what is a socio-linguistic (sic) discrepancy? Can a discrepancy be awkward? Are honorifics vernacular?), the first clause is horribly misleading. Ms. was reclaimed, redefined and pushed by feminists in the 1970’s after having fallen out of use (in a distinct meaning) for hundreds of years.

The dictionary.com bloggers have apparently been spending too much time on thesaurus.com, and not enough on factual accuracy.

Why not? I like it! I think it sounds nice.

HUH?

Naomi – you’re the only one who sounds ‘bitter’!

wew….. i have to admit i have a very poor mind, i didn’t get any reason to blush or even think it is funny.

It’s sooooooo suprising… (that’s sarcasm)

Mrs is pronounced ‘Missis’

How do you pronounce Ms?

Mister, Missis or Missus, Miss, ok, but Ms? Mz? Miz? it’s ridiculous.

Stick to Mr, Mrs, Miss and Master.

I think words have a Soul.
Intent, delivery and intention.
Mind, will and emotion.
Thought, deed, and feeling.
My name says it so well. But.
Would punctuation help?

really? hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Manners are not old fashioned, they are common sense. Unfortunately common sense is not always common.

Miss is for young women or unmarried women.
Ms. is for divorced women, women who are separated, widows, or are in common-law relationships.
Mrs. is for married women, married widows.

With all due respect to all the various opinions, whether in agreement or against.

What is so wrong with allowing our language to evolve as we have as a society and drop all reference to 14th or 15th century definitions.

Let the titles be used as they have come to be used and allow the definitions to evolve just as we have as a society.

I think Ma’am works fine for any woman.

Maybe it’s just the way I was raised, but being a high school student, I would absolutely *cringe* if I had to refer to my teachers as anything other than Mr., Mrs., or Ms. Call me old fashioned but I find it just plain wrong to refer to any faculty member by first name. Using just the last name is better, but not by much. These people are years older than students, have more experience than us, and have had far more education than us, so to adress them in the same way as you would a classmate or sibling is not only professionally inappropriate, but degrading. All people deserve respect, but you can’t deny that the respect a student gives a teacher is a different type of respect than what a teacher gives a student. Much like the way respect should work between child and parent. I even call my friend’s parents Mr. and Ms. *insert last name* (Mr. and Ms. *first name* if I’m not aware of their last.) Not to mention, it’s a nice treat. I feel a nice pang of importance whenever a teacher brings me up to their level and refers to me as Miss so-and-so, instead of just my first name.

We do need a standard honorific for children referring to their stepparents however. “Mom” and “dad” often feels awkward for the child and Mr. and Mrs. is way too formal to address someone who’s suppose to be part of the family, so children are stuck using just the first name. Which I don’t quite agree with (you know how I feel about first names) but truly understand given their aren’t very many other options.

what is the point of this article? miss, mrs, and ms means woman and vice versa 4 men…

I am very concerned about what I read here.

Ok. Stop flaming. Breathe. Listen. Mr. for men, Miss for women. Any age, any marital status. It works, it show respect. The only reason some think Miss is condescending is that women change it with age or marital status. So stop changing. In the south, and in many northern churches we came up calling men and women by their first names (Mr. Joe or Miss Ann). Familiar, but respectful. It rolls off the tongue, and shows both closeness and respect.

The Mz(s) thing of the seventies didn’t achieve the desired outcome because it is age defined. Women came up with it, but you blew it ladies. You recreated part of your original complaint. (plus it is a bit harder to say in normal speech)

Most of us men really don’t care what you want to be called at long as it’s easy to do. For me, it must also allow a bit of formality and respect. I don’t expect people who don’t know me to call me by first name. Nor do my children, their friends or spouse. I address my older neighbors with Mr. or Miss using first or last name, depending on how chummy I’m getting.

Don’t first-name-it with your children. (or socialize on their level) They, and their friends NEED to go through the process of finding peers, and having you as a psychological anchor while their world shifts.

For those who would eliminate all titles, think on this: the last time the two, three or four lane (in one direction) road near your house was resurfaced there was probably a short period where there were no stripes. Did you notice how chaotic the lane usage became? We NEED structure, order and consistency. We equate it to security. It’s one of the biggest reasons so many join gangs.

“Pecking” exists, and will always exist as long as life does. Observe other animals, and even plants. Without a “pecking ORDER”, one cannot know even what direction to push in to seek security, exercise authority, or to advocate for change.

I just happened upon this page, and don’t intend to return, so any venom spit in my direction will be wasted. Sorry for long post, needed.

God bless,
Preacher E (Eric to my friends, Mr. O*** when I teach school)

This is all crazy-talk about not needing to know whether it’s “Miss” or “Mrs.”. Too bad we don’t have a term for each year of a woman’s age, e.g.,Mrs39., Mrs26. That’s important info!

ha ha ha so funny

You have addressed some interesting points that many probably weren’t even aware of, e.g. that the British write the title ‘Mr.’ without the period, whereas Americans leave it in, not to mention the origins of Mr, Mrs. and Ms., terms we come into contact with every day but probably never really thought much about.
You touch upon a tricky subject when you ask what title – Mrs., Ms. or Miss – should be used when addressing a woman. Although our society has become less and less formal, courteous titles are still necessary from time to time. Ms. is clearly the choice for written correspondence when you are unaware of the marital status of your addressee. But, in everyday face-to-face communication, this is a tricky thing and, quite frankly, highly subjective. I think that most will agree that Ms. is not an option and it all comes to down to Mrs. or Miss, thus making ‘perceived age’ the deciding factor. Could be risky in some situations, couldn’t it?
Other languages do things differently. In German, a language in which titles still carry considerable weight in daily living, ‘Fraulein’, which is Miss, is no longer used. In fact, in recent times, the term has taken on a derogatory / belittling tone. Nowadays, any adult woman would only be referred to as ‘Frau’. This does make things less complicated.

@Preacher E

Nice to see a bit of common sense floating around on here.

I think such titles are outmoded. It’s nothing but meaningless sexist labeling we could all do without. Why should it matter what gender you are so people can treat you with less/more respect. It’s just elitist codswallop, the last dregs of a dead class obsessed culture.

now it matters more what initials you have AFTER your name…

@ dude homosapien…
the “mrs. (my name)’s mom” is a play on a line from the 1970s tee vee sitcom “the courtship of eddy’s father”, where in the japanese maid/nanny – mrs. livingston – refers to eddy’s father as “mr. eddy’s father”…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWomoLg1j3Y

We do need a title to show respect as well as keep a distance. But we should have a single title for anyone, regardless gender, age, marriage, education, profession, status etc.

How about we call each other Master? I once called a young woman “master” because she got a master’s degree, and she seemed not offended. And a master does not have to mean a person in control.

I just find it amusing that some people have a problem with it at all. So much of English, especially proverbs, finds its roots in ugly truths. While it’s all very sad that it happened all those years ago, your complaints and tears about differentiating marital status or respect are wasted (and annoying) today.

Respect is about recognizing someone’s virtues regardless of whether you like or dislike them. Total equality (per se) is in itself a ridiculous idea. We are not ‘equal’; we are many races and we are two genders. None of them are better, but we are all different, and predisposition, titles, and history is not going to die simply because bitter young (insert offended party) is unhappy that it happened.

I suppose my point is that, moving forward, your actions towards others is what really what denotes your character. If you are so petty that you won’t speak with someone or do business with a man that calls you Mrs. instead of Ms. (or whatever the case may be), then you are quite honestly unworthy of respect.

My comment is not directed at women, or men, or anyone in particular. If you take offense, then the comment was probably directed towards people like you. If you can accept that someone’s opinion is their own, and my reasoning is solid despite that fact that you don’t agree with it, you’re already well on the path to showing others respect.

Cheers,

Kab.

personally i think that islam has got the best way of adresssing men and women… male=brother
female= sister
ie. sr.Female
br.Male
all problums get illimanated this way
peace

I always use Mrs. when in doubt

This is so interesting& Funny!!!

Epic!!!

I normally use Ms. (first name) and Mr. (first name). We are WAY over thinking this. Seriously, just say your Ms, Mr, Ma’am, and Sir and be done with it. And females, please understand that nobody important thinks that guys are better than you. Get a life!

i dont under stand a nd me can not speell

googoogaagaa so did any one under stand that

Why do people even comment on things like this?!!! Nobody cares what you think!!

Pie Pumpernickel Celery Carrot Ice Cream did anyone understand that?

Translation: Hi, how’s it going?

Ok, i really meant:
Translation: Pie Pumpernickel Celery Carrot Ice Cream did anyone understand that?

thats so funny

People! The term “master” is used (or was) for someone “Having comtrol or authority” In the U.K. for instance (at least ’till the 1800s) your boss would be called “master” since he has authority, as the term “master of the house” It does NOT mean that he is master of a particular skill, that is a more recent usage and often misconstrued.

In reading this article i learned where Mr. and Mrs., Miss, and Ms., derived from, but i think that these comments are really much more interesting. I believe a lot of very interesting points have been brought up. I think that everyone shouldn’t be battling here though. The discussion and argument is quite interesting, but i don’t see the need for such under-handed rude comments. Although Naomi does make some pretty good points I think “bitter young feminists” was a bit harsh and stereo typical. I do believe and understand, however, men have always been higher up in status, even though it’s commonly accepted it shouldn’t be that way. We still have not had a women president, woman are still being payed less in some occupations. Some feminists may get overly defensive about the whole idea but they still should not be considered “bitter”. Many feminists really just think we should be equal, as do I. (Women mature faster than men!) They don’t think that it’s wrong Mr. derived from master. That is just how things were so long ago, clearly its not like that now, which is what matters.

I also believe that people should just be called by their first names. That’s why they were given; it gives us distinction as individuals, rather than distinction as females or males. I don’t see how it is really courtesy to give some one a label as either a man, or woman by marital status. Sure, it’s tradition to call some one Miss, Mrs., Ms., or Mr. I even feel happy when my teachers or random people call me Miss sometimes, but I just don’t see why its so important. Is the tradition really defining of us as people? Just because something has been used for a long time should not make it an important tradition. Things like birthday celebrations, New Years Eve, holidays (yes they’ve been commercialized), and all the celebrations that bring us together are whats really important.

I know there are many conflicting beliefs on the matter, but this is just how i feel. Me, as a 21st century, seventh grader. Maybe this makes my thoughts and opinions invalid but I think that it’s really important to get standpoints from every one, and to see who feels what, to see the bigger picture. One opinion does not matter on it’s own, but many so that they may be blended together creating an overall and understood right. I could never get out of a comment that i completely agreed with what i get from many conflicting comments that create a bigger picture.
So thank you, to all those who have commented. I really think i got a lot out of it (:

Sorry for any typos; it’s late and this computer is slow(:

@Muffin
I do!

Some of you are getting too worked up about this. Yes, it is considered polite by some people to address them as Ms., or Mr. (etc.) but why? I don’t think it’s really necessary. I went to Montessori (school system) and there we called all of our teachers by their first names. When i was littler I didn’t even know some of there last names, and that was just normal. I think we shouldn’t all be biting each others head off. People just have different opinions and there is no need to be condescending or rude.

Has anyone else noticed the recent – last few years – disappearance of people saying “Excuse me please,” when they want to get past you. As opposed to just barging or forcing their way past. When manners become irrelevant we become less civilised.

what about Ji.. (after first name)

According to my Gender and Language professor, “Ms.” is a failed linguistic innovation, and it’s easy to see why. Honestly, I wish we would get rid of all of them, “Mr.” included. They’re unnecessary and hold too negative connotations for the female set of terms that make it easy to rise offense.

Wow. The first comment for this page was written one year ago. HAPPY ANNIVERSARY!! =D

I agree with Adrian Daddow!

Times have certainly changed. Everyone seems to be just known by their first name now, and sometimes even in business it is difficult to find out a person’s last name. When I call to speak to Peter or Elizabeth, I’d like to have the last name to go with it even if I don’t use the Mr, Mrs, or Miss titles.

I was taught that Mr was for all men, Mrs was for married women, and Miss for unmarried women. Then along came Ms for all women especially if unsure of their marital status.

I’ve seen the evolution from Mr and Mrs John Smith, to John and Mary Smith, to Mary and John Smith (woman’s name first). Now it is way more common for John Smith and Mary Brown to live together without becoming Mr and Mrs through marriage. Alternatively they get married but she keeps her name and does NOT become Mrs Smith. Also if divorce come in, Mrs Smith (or Mary Smith) is insisting on changing back to Mary Brown, even though they may have a few children carrying the last name of Smith.

If we’re not close friends or similar in age, I still prefer to use Mr Smith or Miss Brown. (Mrs Smith if she’s married to Mr Smith)

I always thought “sir” and “miss” were what you called teachers and those older than you out of courtesy. I have never referred to anyone as “Mrs” because I don’t feel I have the right to make that presumption. I have however often chased aften an elderly man yelling “sir!” because he’s dropped something.

I think maybe its a case of what you’re used to and what you are comfortable with. My mum always taught me to be polite and respectful, and opposed to some teenagers I know, who don’t appear to have been taught much of anything at all.

To me “Mrs” is a prefix to a name that means the woman is married, but other than that it means very little. Especially today when there is no pressing requirement to be married or get married, and men no longer “own” the woman they’re married to.

meow

Our society has moved so far away from courtesy even when you are being served (no matter what level of service, waiter, banker,customer service, clerk, cold callers, unknown neighbors, etc.) you should never address anyone by their first name without permission. We have become very common; using the title of Mr., Mrs. and Miss again will assist us to learn respect and honor again. I am tired of being addressed as baby, sweetie or any other names that should be reserved for those that I have an intimate relationship with. I am a woman over 50 and do not appreciate people taking liberty and imposing their rebelliousness against authority or the elderly. I address my elders and those that I work with that I am not on first basis with the title Mr., Mrs. Dr, etc. not because they earned it, but because I desire to be a part of a society that waits to receive permission before I impose my preference. By not using the above proper address is another way of showing insecurity with self.

Huh…
My cheeks are uncolored, I’m not laughing, hows that funny, embarrassing or anything you hoped it to be.
There are though, some interesting points. I’m fascinated!
Sot of…
P.s: Call me Master!

That didn’t make me laugh or blush at all :/

OK in america no one really cares anymore long live The U.S.A.

First time on this ‘hotword’ site… Are articles normally this bland? I am neither blushing nor laughing. The whole drawn out experience could have been condensed to one small, succinct paragraph.

And the responses: most people are repeating other people’s flames against the first poster.

Wow. Just… wow. This is definitely the first and last time I visit this particularly odd site.

What an interesting article!! I prefer to use the title “Ms”. Since I am no longer a youngster; but, a widow instead, I think Ms is proper. Emily Post said it is not proper to use the title Mrs. John Doe, if your husband is deceased. Likewise, you should not use your first name, Mrs. Jane Doe, since you can not be married to yourself. Hence, Ms. Jane Doe is proper.
Food For Thought,
Ms. “Coffeetimegal”

@Naomi stfu…..

I too was raised in the south and taught to use Ma’am in answering an adult woman, but never to address them that way. In answering I would say “Yes/No Ma’am”. In addressing that same person I would use Mrs/Miss. Most woman today do not like to be called Ma’am as it denotes old or matronly and I believe it is also a contraction of Madam. To me, using Miss means that you know she is married. Ms. seems the most logical choice to me but I’ve noticed that some women don’t like that either!

whoa!! never knew that.. well, so you sure we are not gonna get penalized if we use Ms. for a woman of any marital status.. because there will be some discomfort to use mrs. or miss. henceforth..

for mister it is Mr. this is for an adult or even a junior master.. uhmm.. an unmarried woman or girl will be Miss. or Ms. and married one will be Mrs.

hi:)

HI :0

I think old woman Alva needs to lighten up a bit. Though, if I had a first name like “Alva”, I probably wouldn’t want to hear it too much either.

I think this whole honorific mentality has long been obsolete. Times change and language changes with it. What was “cool” and “radical” in the 80s is now “dope” and “stupid”. To hold onto these “proper” manners of address are nothing more than quaint. The generation born today will hopefully let all this “properness” die out.

At least during the last two centuries, and certainly when I was a youth, the title ‘Master’ was given to adolescent males. It was often used in envelope addresses. Old books also used ‘master’ when an adult addressed an adolescent male.

Terms used to denote status of individuals are utilized by all cultures and each language has its’ own. We use these terms signify ones status, this is done not to demean, but rather to associate. Mrs Miss are labels use to indicate the marital status of a woman, Ms being used to hide the status.
Dr. Professor and other titles given are used to indicate job profession,
though some people may misuse the title’s in belief it gives status boost.
People have always tried to utilize words to create social positions and a
” I better than you.” class. There will always be some one who can find reason to change terms, titles or create new words for the language we use. Remember words meanings change with each generations use.

There is a trend now in the American south for children (ages 6-12 or so) to call adults who are their teachers or caregivers Mr. or Mrs. (and then to follow it with their first names) — For example: “Mrs. Cindy” (first name) — instead of “Mrs. Hunter” (last name). I realize that many adults think this is a good compromise because it uses the honorific to imply respect and at the same time implies familiarity between the child and the adult. Is this a good solution in a child / teacher dynamic?

I have never heard an official story of the selection of the term Ms. to denote a woman without distinguishing marital status. The need for such a term stemmed from the Feminist movement of the 70’s, but where did Ms. come from? Having lived in the time before the general use of Ms., I have a hypothesis. In elementary school we always adressed female teachers as Mrs. or Miss depending on their marital status. In addressing a female whose name was known but whose marital status was unknown, it was natural to slur the two prefixes together and pronounce it like Mizz, slightly drawn out to make it unclear whether it was one syllable or two. I believe that this common practice led to the official adaptation of the prefix Ms. Does anyone know if there is any truth to this?

Whoa i nevr knew they meant that much and that these terms were around for that long

It’s strange how people (or women) are still asked these days if they prefer to be addressed as Miss, Mrs, or Ms. Because it’s actually illegal to discriminate against a woman based on her marital status. And refering to a woman as Miss or Mrs clearly identifies her as married or single, while Mr does not confirm if a male is married or not. The terms waitress & actress are now becoming obsolete. Whenever I’m collecting data I don’t ask… I just record all females as “Ms”

I dont think it really matters how we address people these days as long as they are comfortable with what we call them. at my school the new teacher puts their name up on te board with either Ms, Mrs or Miss and we usually just abide by it. I dont prefer either one i still address them as what their comfortable with and just move on.

Guys, what would Jesus think about your comments? Be careful what you say! Thanks a lot, dictionary. com!

I think today in 21st century American English the correct forms of address are: Mister; Misses; Miss & Miz i.e. Mr., Mrs., Miss., & Ms. to be used at one’s discreation.

In the South, every woman of any race or marital status you meet is ordinarily Miss Sally, Miss Susan, etc. after that, she may become “Mrs. Brown,” depending on whether the relationship is a little more formal, a business relationship, or if the relationship is between obiously disparate social or power ranks. “Miss” is considered extremely courterous and it is a serious faux pas not to use either Miss or Mrs. when speaking to or a referring to a woman. Every man is Mr. Bob or Mr. Brown, again depending on the relationship and setting. (And you better say “yes, sir.” To address either a man or woman of a certain age by his or first name without the preliminary introductions,”May I call you Bill?” is a serious blunder and always noticed, though perhaps not commented on. I was once waiting in a reception line and a man asked for Elaine, a fiftyish woman. The woman answered, “You will not find an Elaine here but I am Mrs. Jackson.” Some call our social code outdated or antiquated–who cares–but we know that everyone feels respected and we like it that way! Note: I still do not use the term Ms; it has no meaning to me and I think our part of the country has picked it up reluctantly, although in writing, Ms. is still pronounced “Miss.”

All of you are stupid, do u even look at the text at the top, if not, fix up and get some glasses. (muppets) i mean the only people who talk sense on this page is me and Naomi. you know what, you waste my time.

See you later, dummies

ha ha ha by the way which part is funny. I am unable to get.

HEY EVERYONE;; ME IS MEHICO!!!! HAHA ADD ME Benita Ng on fb. I am da small lil girl who is asian and chinese :P kk bye

btw, my facebook is:::::: Benita Ng. PLZ COMMENT ON MY FACEBOOK PG!!! ADD ME!!!!!!!!!!!

Upon matriculation at St. John’s College, Santa Fe, NM. All students in Seminar address each other as well as the Tutors’ by their last name, preceeded by Mr. or Ms. as appropriate. This is also the practice at the College’s other campus in Annapolis, MD.

If they had not included the words “blush” and/or “laugh” in the title of this article, a great many people would not have bothered to read it. It is my opinion that it was posted less of a desire to educate people, rather than a desire to incite argument among the commentors, and at that it has proven quite successful.

The prefixes Mr, Mrs, Ms, Mister, Miss, Mistress, Master, and any others you might care to include, already have certain connotations, based on your locality and how you were taught them as a child. So pointing out their seemingly controversial history – which may or may not even be accurate – serves no useful purpose, but only serves to trigger an often heated discussion.

Many of you have said people should use these prefixes out of respect, but too many people today have not been taught respect. They have not been taught that everyone starts out deserving it, that some people stop deserving it, and other people earn more; and they have not been taught either how to accept it or to show it. All of the arguing and name-calling in these comments are evidence of that. So there’s not much point in telling such people to use these prefixes to show respect, because they simply do not understand what the word means. Before they can show respect, they have to learn what it really means, and that is what is lacking in much of today’s society.

I cannot believe I read as many of these rants as I did! (Spot on “M” June 11, 2012 at 11:29 am)

Part of the problem as I see it, is we have become a casual, lose, disrespectful society. I have progressively watched a generation grow that is almost completely devoid of any moral standing, has little concept of authority, and lacks respect for others, particularly those who refuse to conform to their liberal ideas, and now are fighting to get rid of any ‘title’ of respect. What really is wrong with society showing honor and respect to another? Once introduced, (or if the person to whom I am introduced has the courtesy to ask what I desire to be called), I ask people either to call me by the name I give them (which is NOT my given first name), or, if they must use a title, to address me either as “Colonel” or “Doctor” as I have earned both of those by working hard. But do not ‘assume’ you can be informal and address me disrespectfully (and incorrectly) by my first name.

I too, usually say to them, “Mr. “X” was my Father and he died—please call me “X”—really out of respect for him, as I have not yet, at 60+ attained the level of HONOR I still have for him—something sorely missing by most, but not all of today’s youth. I also ask, how many of you readers/writers have seen a dirty, tattered, homeless person on a street corner and yelled “Get a job, bum” rather than, as I have often done “Excuse me Sir, are you hungry, and can I buy you lunch?”

Sometimes we get “wrapped around the axle” worrying about the WORDS used and forget that it was a real way of showing RESPECT for one you have just met. If you as a first time visitor came to my office for an interview or whatever and with no respect shown plopped down and said ”hey Jimbo, what’s new?” you would be out of my office so fast your head would spin. Call it old fashioned, I call it being respectful—and there is so little of that left these days—these rants are clearly indicative of that! The title Mr. or Sir in no way is saying one is better than another, or that you are abased, it is merely a way of showing respect for another and allowing THEM to tell how to be addressed.

On paper (something most kids no longer use), it is important how to show respectful acknowledgment when formally writing to someone unknown to you by gender or age—that is why for now, Sir, Ma’am, Mr., Mrs., and even Ms. is the best we have. Maybe we could adopt just “M—plus last name”—that covers it all.

And ever wonder why you do not get called back for a job interview? I am the ‘old fart’ who puts at the bottom of the stack, or even throws out the “My man Jimbo” (so to speak) and the impersonal “To whom it May Concern” and place on top the well-written resumes of those who took time to find out and address them to “Dr X” or “Mr X” or “Dear Sir/Ma’am.” It really is not about being male or female, young or old, married or unmarried, subservient or master—it is about being a person, one who matters, one who is worthy—lots of ranters just do not ‘get’ that. Just remember, until we are dead and gone and respect has left this earth in deference to “yo” “dog” “bitch” “dude” and whatever—there are those of us who appreciate the ‘before’ and ‘after’ generation showing us that we matter.

I believe there is no need for terms like Mrs.,because why is it essential to indicate whether a female is married? Mr. and Ms. work just fine. Also, I am all for posting your opinions on this site, but can you please just respectfully
disagree with Naomi? I cannot find her comment, so I did not read it, but”you’re an idiot”? Really?

A showing of respect should definitely stay in our vernacular implemented with Mr. and Mrs. My problem lies in the variation for women in the Ms. I’ve felt this way since I was about 8 years old. Call me a feminist if you want but you can not deny the obvious double standard for women in our culture that has even permeated our language.

I had a habit of saying Mrs to all. But i belive this article and now I am going to address Ms to all. thanks………

I used to have my email mistress_of_ (I won’t give the last part), and I was sure that just meant a female master, and thought that master and mistress were gender equivalents. I did not know it meant a ‘kept woman’ and I only became aware when a man sent me an email asking if I was ‘really a mistress’. I checked and later decided to change it.
It’s like Madam and Ma’am too. Madam now means a female pimp. But I would not be offended if someone called me madam. Ma’am is acceptable, but madam NOooo! Although now ma’am has some attached ageist reference to some women.
We should reclaim these words. But as for other words… M’Lady – also too old-fashioned, Bitch! – NO. Hunny – no, maybe, Matron – in use… What about just ‘W’ for woman. Or Wr.? Womister?
I like Lady Sarah… It could go from ‘girl’ to ‘woman’ or ‘lady’… And, like in Arabic, have a separate word for an old lady, so we don’t need to be ageist and use the word ‘old’.

I agree on using Ms for all females as Mr is used for all males. If there’s one thing I can’t stand it’s being called Madam, I find it quite derogatory. Ma’am is so much more pleasant sounding.

Why should we toss out honorifics and common courtesy because of what words _used_ to mean? Language changes; as do customs. When I grew up Mr. was used for men, Mrs. for married women, Master for young men (boys), and Miss. for unmarried women. Prior to my youth all boys all wore short pants, even to church. That changed; so why not words, meanings, and honorifics?

Today Master for young men has become archaic, leaving Mr. for all men, Miss for young women (girls, younger than around 12-16), and Ms. for all grown women has become the proper modern usage. Over time the age distinction for women will also go by the wayside; as it should.

Someday we will develop gender neutral first and second person pronouns and honorifics in the English language. Some others already have neutral pronouns. Maybe he/she-she/he will become hs, sh, hse, hes, or seh; him/her-her/him will become hr, rh, hir, hem, or him(oops); and so on. I am sure there are some out there who can come up with a consistent and much better set of ideas about new pronouns than I have in these couple minutes.

In short:
Everyone should learn and use more Common Courtesy.
It requires little effort; and the world would be a better place for everyone.

Also:
DR JC (27 June 2012)
Your “Part of the problem as I see it, is we have become a casual, loose, disrespectful society. I have progressively watched a generation grow that is almost completely devoid of any moral standing, has little concept of authority, and lacks respect for others, … What really is wrong with society showing honor and respect to another?” and your emphasizing “showing RESPECT” is right on target (or, as another way words change – it is spot on).
And I think your “adopt just “M—plus last name”” idea is a great one.

M A.

I take everyone’s comments on board, some like using titles, some don’t for a variety of reasons. Fair’s fair.

However, what I don’t like, as a female, is being referred to as ‘Madam’ in shops or when doing business by the service industry staff. It drives me nuts! I feel like replying with “Sorry, but I don’t own a brothel – please don’t call me Madam!” Because, in this day and age, that’s what a Madam is!

I don’t like an automatic ‘Mrs’ either – it’s completely presumptuous and unnecessary.

Those in the service industries don’t really need to use anything… just an ‘How can I help you?’ or ‘Thank you’ is fine, or my first name (if they have it is preferrable).

I’m a girl and i don’t like being called Ms. i’d rather be called dude. u wanna know y? cuz im a tomboy! if you’re readin this comment then if you’re a real tomboy you’d want exactly what i said! C’ya Dudes!

Anana – I think we should stick with them. Standards are necessary and these are simple ones. Genuine curtsey dose not offend!

y is the world so sad these days :’(

I’m all for honorifics… when they’re useful.

You can use “Mr.” or “Sir” or Miss” or M’am” simply to cue the other party to the fact that you wish to have a conversation. Since we’re initiating the contact, it’s only fitting we acknowledge we don’t know them but would appreciate their engagement.

The convention continues until such time as the parties agree formalities are no longer necessary. A customer service representative might keep evoking the salutation upon occasion, signifying that though they do not know you personally they continue to recognize the validity of your inquiry no matter who you are.

“Miss” and “Mrs.” do strike me as unnecessary since “Ms.” will suffice for either. Marital status is not somebody else’s business.

I was born in Puerto Rico and raised in New York City. RESPECT is the single most important aspect of how we communicate with each other. We are raised informal. Those who are older then you (20 or 30 years) will always be called Don. Don Juan, Don Miguel Donna Juana, etc. We rarely use last names opting to call each other on a first name basis if we are around the same age group. If the person is your boss and younger I will use the term Mr. unless they prefer to be called by their first name. This is usually the case.With women, married or not, I use Senorita. Usually they well me to call them by their first name. So I think we need to look at culture and I personally would be interested in learning how other cultures deal with this.
Gracias, Don Miguel (I am 63 years old).

I was born in Puerto Rico and raised in New York City. RESPECT is the single most important aspect of how we communicate with each other. We are raised informal. Those who are older then you (20 or 30 years) will always be called Don. Don Juan, Don Miguel Donna Juana, etc. We rarely use last names opting to call each other on a first name basis if we are around the same age group. If the person is your boss and younger I will use the term Mr. unless they prefer to be called by their first name. This is usually the case.With women, married or not, I use Senorita. Usually they well me to call them by their first name. So I think we need to look at culture and I personally would be interested in learning how other cultures deal with this.

Gracias, Don Miguel (I am 63 years old).

Wow

Jakob: ma’am, a contraction of Madam, an anglicization of the French “Madame”, which literally means ‘my lady’

Ms. and Mr. are sufficient. Having additional titles to qualify only women’s and not men’s marital status is a double standard. I would like to see one title for all: if the title is meant to show respect, it should not matter if the recipient if female or male. We can thank patriarchy for this silliness.

Naomi said it so well. I could not agree more.

u guys r not suppose to chat and flirt around! SHEESH! PEOPLE R OUT OF THE’RE MIND THESE DAYS

ACTUALLY ITS COOL 2 FIGURE OUT THIS RIGHT? HELLO? ANYBODY THERE?

lol
so funny!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

mrs is wierd

Just like every man is a Mr., every woman is a Ms.
It’s that simple.

BORING

So many comments have been left, I doubt mine will be read, but I would like to point out that Miss, Mrs., and Ms. were not always used to point out a woman’s marital status, and there *were* two honourifics for men, just as there used to be two for women.

Master was used to refer to young men, and Mister became the honourific once a man reached adulthood (typically when he had land and a family).

Miss was used to refer to young women, and Mistress (or Mrs.) became the honourific once she reached adulthood. As most women married by the time they were twenty, most women who were called “Mrs.” were already married. It snuck itself into our culture that way. So, no “bitter young feminists” need be bitter–we can always go back to the way it was. I’m a high school teacher, and will oftentimes call my male students “Master so-and-so.” They get a kick out of it.

Also, a side note: to whomever said women used to call their husbands “lord,” I don’t believe that was common practice, unless he had a high social standing (in which case, others would call him by that title, as well). If you were married to the local famer or innkeeper, I doubt you’d call him that. The funny thing about history of gender relations is, modern day perceptions often have it wrong about how our ancestors treated women. There are some truths to what they say, but many times, people take what the Victorians thought and espoused about women and apply it to every other preceeding generation.

I really think we’re missing a key point in all the commotion around the feminists. I didn’t read anyone who was actually scandalized by the article, even women. I’m going to take a huge leap into assuming that such lack of offense means that most of us are familiar with, and invested in the work that goes on in the bedroom. Let’s not forget that sexual satisfaction was one of the cornerstones of the feminists movement. Today it is surprising to find a couple that does not take for granted the assumption that sex is for the pleasure of both parties. Even the female masochists (I’m sorry, non-feminists) generally seek this right. Perhaps Naomi and supporters didn’t realize the feminists of yesterday have contributed so much to the pleasures of today… of perhaps that revolution hasn’t reached every bedroom across the country. If there is anyone who, in her zeal to negate the feminists around them, has rejected this aspect of their work, I strongly suggest you give it a try.

Interesting! I didn’t know that

Absolutely: “The perfect bit of courtesy.”

I agree that the meanings don’t hold to the archaic expressions they once did, but…now I haven’t gotten through all the responses, but please think of the questions I am posing as if these people were yourselves.
Teacher’s in school?-While it is difficult with the different versions per marital status, I do believe kids have more respect using honorary titles for their teachers, then not.
I have to admit, I am 35, I like the feeling of respect from gentlemen(I like the example someone gave of holding a door open for a woman or girl) While I know our society changes, there are still some niceties that are appreciated and I think our children deserve that same respect. I have twin daughters that are 17 and an 8 year old. I want them to be able to feel that same respect.
Military, elders(both in church and age-wise), doctors and many of your professionals have some form of title, representing all the years they have put into getting where they are. Respect or honorific?
I agree, also, with the comment someone said about making it easier in call centers with prefixes on names, when cold-calling, been there, done thatLOL-Feel for you
We have women’s rights and are proud to have them too, but is it so bad to be able to show respect to each other in general with these titles?
One per each would be easier thoughLOL-Example-Mr.(man-married or not), Miss.(for women either married or not) I know we have came along way from the expressions they used to mean
Let’s do create a new era, with the same respect. Titles are good, and subconsciously help us respect other’s more. In this day and age, that could go over really well. How many of you see a drastic change in children and the respect they once had for their elder’s? Don’t you think this little subconscious change could make a major difference for us? Just an idea.

Shanay,
Of course you don’t get it, yo…….it ain’t ebonics, Dozy broad!

Whoa what alot of meaning for just one small everyday word.

Interesting article and at times a somewhat curious set of comments. I have no concerns about Mr (or Mr.), Mrs., Miss or Ms.- whichever the individual prefers. What I would like to go is the retention of armed forces titles such as “Captain”, “Colonel” when the person has retired. It no longer has any relevance- and retired NCOs and private soldiers no longer use their ranks. It is just egotism. Horrible.

Re mistress, despite its second meaning as kept woman, mistress has always had a respectable meaning as well, as any reader of Shakespeare and even later English literature will recognize. (Mistress could mean the owner of an inn, an equal when addressed with humor by a man or an unmarried female head of household when addressed by her servants.) So, it’s really not so shocking or amusing.

The French are going through a similar debate. Mademoiselle, meaning “my miss” is falling out of favor as a mode of address for unmarried women over 21. Official practice (everything is either official in France, or it’s not.) is to discontinue using the form for women over 21, but, of course, some traditionalists will continue to address any unmarried woman, no matter the age, as mademoiselle. One reason to avoid that term, however, is the obvious impossibiltily of knowing whether a woman is married or not.

The French very properly in my view maintain the habit of addressing people they don’t know quite well as Monsieur or Madame. You will score points if you address a shop owner as soon as you step in the door by saying “Bonjour, monsieur or madame”, or, when there are both male and female staff “Bonjour monsieurdame”, which I really love. You will invariably be addressed in kind.

Wow, for an article that appeared to be a put forward as a bit of trivia, it certainly evoked a lot of emotional responses. As other(s) have mentioned in their way, language is dynamic. The only thing we can be certain of is that it will change (ain’t that so?). I hold a doctorate. I choose to introduce myself as Dr. in settings where the title seems relevant. Sometimes I choose to introduce myself by my first name. Sometimes people call me Mrs. and, for whatever reason, I’m not especially fond of that, so if the occassion warrants, I might ask to be addressed differently; however if it seems to matter to others, I don’t make a big deal of it. It just isn’t that important at the individual level (or mine anyway). At places, say…certain coffee establishments, that ask for my name, I can choose to give whatever name I want, Dr., Mrs., Ms., my first name, or heck, even like the female police lieutenant in a TV show…she wants to be addressed as Sir. If I am specifically asked for my first name and I choose not to use that form of address, I’ll say “please call me…” whatever it is I choose.

I try to give that same courtesy to others. I will refer to them using the language they used to introduce themselves (e.g., some of our clients give only first names, some say Mrs. Jones or Mr. Smith). When in doubt, I ask “how would you prefer to be addressed?”.

In grad school, when in the psychiatry department individuals with M.D.s or Ph.D.s were **always** referred to as Doctor So-and-so, but in the neuroscience department all the docs preferred to be addressed by their first names. Once I attained my Ph.D. status, I asked colleagues, especially my bosses, how they preferred to be addressed. Almost without exception, each said when in a formal situation call them doctor, informally call them by their first name. In some cases that took getting used to (the informal address). A few were outliers, some wanted formal only, some wanted informal only.

I’ve had grad students, employees, friends, and others that just could not bring themselves to call me by my first name. Many compromised by using Dr. and my first name. Employees tended to prefer Dr. and my last name, even in informal situations.

Regardless of how I’ve been addressed, I don’t take one form or another as more or less respectful. Tone of voice, facial expression, body language…that tells me much more about respect or disrespect.

The bottom line is, I try to respect each individual’s preference and when I have a preference I say so, respectfully.

Different regions, different upbringing, different cultures, or religions…it’s impossible to apply a blanket rule of proper respect to all cases and I prefer not to. I rather like “when in Rome…” and “do unto others…”

I also like the basic premise of our United States democracy (to paraphrase), freedom of speech, religion, and pursuit of happiness. We’re entitled to all of these as long as we don’t harm others. We are each entitled to our opinions. What a boring world if we were all in agreement about everything…stagnant. But, a healthy debate without recriminations and name calling would be much more productive I think.

All in all, attempting to respect others’, and my own, dignity and needs, and doing what I can to help or accommodate within my means, makes my life simpler and the people I interact with happier. I’m not flawless or perfect at it, but I do try.

I think that’s all I can ask of anybody else…just try to walk in that person’s shoes and respect their needs and point of view.

I didn’t read it. }-]

@Christian: Really? Is Jesus going to come down here and yell at us? LOL

wowza

Oddly, Naomi and others are unfamiliar with “Ms.” It’s only been around since 1970–42 years.

I am not in favour of “Ms” as for some it has caused confusion by adding a 3rd form of address for one sex and people don’t really understand its use or even sometimes how to pronounce it.

The best solution by far would be to drop “Miss” for anyone but young girls, ie under about 13. Children basically never need formal terms of address but on occasions they could be addressed as either Master or Miss.

Thus all adults would be addressed as Mr or Mrs, as a mark of respect when the situation requires. This is similar to the way that in France, you would not address a middle-aged unmarried woman as Mademoiselle, but as Madame.

It could be asked why not just give someone their name? Really this is logical but culturally there is a desire to express some sort of formalised courtesy to people in some situations.

And this also is something that seems to be missing in this discussion thread – that the use of formal terms of address vary between written and verbal communication, and also vary according to levels of respect between the parties, formality of the situation and social status of the parties.

There’s no reason to get rid of the honorifics Mr, Mrs, Ms, and Miss. The others, however, are foolish and wastes. Miss should be for girls, Ms for unmarried women, Mrs for married women, and Mr for married men. Boys can be Ma and unmarried men Mas or something. Or, like Naomi said, just keep the honorifics as is and stop crying about the differences between men and women. Women’s sexuality is more sacred then men’s own. Eg, people gasp quicker if a woman is raped than a man. Don’t like that fact? Too bad! Enjoy being a whore or whorish? That’s on you, but don’t drag the rest of us down with you! It’s evil to do so.

courtesies are important for example calling a male boss sir. But simple and overrated ones are not important. When i was in year six i went over my friends house and called her mum and dad by their first names and they did not like it and asked me to call them mr and mrs ‘last name’

Hey Ben,
“bitter old conservative” OLD? Dude, I’m 16 years old. Using my Dad’s email address because he wanted me to address this story. Dude, and I say “Dude” because your obviously don’t wanna be called anything else. Why are you so angry towards conservatives. What? Don’t feel like following the golden rule? Wanna make your own rules? Go ahead. I’ll follow the golden rule and respect people in general until they show me that they don’t deserve that respect. Maybe we should start calling each other “male” and “female” that would really indicate respect. Dude

I’m a boy scout so naturally I think Mr. Ms. and sir should be used to address anyone older than you

WOW who new!!!!!!!

am the only 9 yr old who read this? cuz you guys sound like adults except for riley. and naomi? i dont know what stupid kids youve met, but i can assure you, all of my friends are not calling british people like you, bitter! i get your point, but dude, you were way off! and no using the excuse “that was a typo”

In elementary school I always used Mr, Mrs, and Miss followed by their last name when talking to a teacher
However, my High School has a trend that everybody calls teachers “Sir” or “Miss” (regardless of marital status) and they rarely use a last name.
I don’t know if this is becoming more popular in general now or if it’s because I went from a public school to a Catholic one or what. I do quite like it though, the way that it is used by most students actually sounds very respectful, possibly actually more so than the previous way.

wow! very interesting! I knew about Mr. being master and I’m sure i could’ve guessed the mistress thing for Mrs or Ms, but cool! I never really thought about it before! But I guess every word has to come from somewhere.

I strongly agree with the wise Naomi. There are a lllllllllllooooooooooooooooooooooot of comments, by the way. I read most of them.

LOL interesting

just commenting to say, to “ben”, who wonders why we should respect our elders … ugh! Kids these days.

Both (the pair) Mr & Mrs are weird.

Wow what a big documentary of something as simple as two to three letters. They could have just said Mrs is for ladies that are married, Ms is for ladies that aren’t married and Mr is for Men

Honorifics are tied to culture, and it is difficult to understand them without first understanding the culture that defined them. I prefer Ms. instead of Mrs. or Miss, largely because my mom is a doctor and she grew up having to deal with a lot of gender-based prejudice. I use Ms. because I don’t like being defined by my marital status and I don’t like anyone else to make presumptions about how old I am, or whether I am married. I don’t like being called “Miss” because I grew up in New Jersey and no one used it there. I interpret being called “Miss” as being talked down to, and that has everything to do with the context of the culture I grew up with. However, when I lived in Boston, “Miss” was an honorific term and none of the young women I knew took offense at it. I’ve now lived in Austin for 12 years, and I know that women in Texas (regardless of age) prefer to be called ma’am. If you call a younger woman ma’am in New Jersey or New York, it’s derogatory.

So, @Naomi, I think morals are a very small part of using honorifics — if you want to show respect, understand a person’s culture before you choose what to call them.

Mrs is actually missing the apostrophe…Mr’s….meaning owned by Mr.

Mr. and Ms. is good enough mostly used in written communication to address .

Thanks

Manoj Sharma

I find these words very courteous, thus necessary for the world of today. The day that these words fade off into the mist is the day the word “class” loses a very significant piece of its meaning.

I’ve been ‘Mr’ since I was 13 so I think that’s the age the title should be applied to young men.

You can call me Betty, Betty when you call me you can call me Al. Lol. Geez people. Have you pulled the lint out of your belly buttons today. I mean come on. Miss MS Mrs Mr Son Master Mister Missus Missy Mistress; the fact of the matter is that most women take their husbands last name when they get married. Thus the need for extra title. The man never takes on the womans name and if that were the case men would have more titles. Getting rid of Mrs is going a bit overboard dont you think. Should people stop marrying too since the woman will be treated differently than an unmarried woman. If banning differentiating titles so as not to treat anyone with more or less respect than others would improve the fact that on average a woma makes 70 cents to every dollar a man makes for the same work, then I’m all for it.

Today’s more correct form of address in everyday usage is in the vernacular. “Bitch” As in “Hey Bitch, bring me another beer.” Hence enforcing the Mr. eppitet as in Mister, Master or Magister.

I am a 39 year old man. I am also a retired Minister / Pastor.

My humble opinions on the subject are as follows:

I refer to a man as Sir, unless using his surname, I would use Mr. Smith.
Yes Sir. Pardon me, Sir. Good afternoon, Mr. Smith.

I refer to a group of men as Gentlemen.
Good afternoon, gentlemen. Excuse me, gentlemen.

I refer to women as Ma’am, unless using her surname, I would use Ms. or Mrs. Smith, if I know their marital status, if their marital status is unknown, I typically use Mrs. Smith.
Yes Ma’am. Excuse me Ma’am. Hello, Ms/Mrs. Smith.

I refer to a group of women as Ladies.
Good afternoon, ladies. Excuse me, ladies.

I address a group of mixed genders as Ladies & Gentlemen regardless of familiarity with them, being on a first name basis or not knowing them at all.
Good evening, Ladies & Gentlemen.

If someone holds a Ph.D in ANY field, I refer to them as Dr. Smith. If they spent the money and the time earning the degree, they deserve the title.
Hello Dr. or in the case of my personal Dr. I refer to him as Dr. Mac which is a contraction of his surname.

I refer to older Church members as Brother or Sister, as we are Brothers and Sisters in Christ. I always address Deacons of the Church as Brother Bob, or Brother Carl out of respect for being an Ordained man. Church members my age or younger, I typically refer to by their given name.

As an Ordained Minister I preferred the members of the Church I was Pastoring to refer to me as Brother John, Pastor and happily accepted Preacher… in addressing correspondence to any clergy, I believe Reverend is appropriate. I refer to the Minister of the Church I am attending as Brother Al or Pastor. I address Catholic Priests as Father, Jewish Leaders as Rabbi, etc.

I address children as young man or young lady or by their given name.

If someone asks me to refer to them in any manner different than my standard titles or honorifics I use, I will acquiesce to their preference and address them in their preferred manner.

Even though I am handicapped, have trouble standing for more than a few minutes and must walk with at least a cane, sometimes a walker, I will offer my seat to a female regardless of age (from a little girl to an elderly woman) when there are no other seats available. If I could get out of my wheelchair when I have to use it, I would offer it to a female that had to stand when I am seated. I always hold doors for females of all ages if they are within 20-30 feet of a door as I am going through it and will typically hold a door for a man if he is within 2-3 steps of the door.

It is simply polite and a(n) (un)common courtesy to use a title or honorific when addressing someone else other than people you are on a first name basis with.

If all of this is old fashioned or outdated, then so be it. I will show respect to anyone, until they prove they are not worthy of it.

I do think that every opportunity to express respect should be grasped with both hands. Whether it’s the formal titles, shaking hands, bowing or tipping one’s hat.

Hardly any men nowadays, IMHO, could be said to be ‘masters’, since they’re pretty much all in debt to someone and without land, estates and staff. The government has seen to it that real masters are thin on the ground, similarly with real mistresses or teachers – Many are bound to a company code of practice and not allowed to be master of themselves or their own lives, working – as they are – for another’s profit.

When did displaying respect and honour become a sign of weakness?

I do shake my friend’s hands and I do call them mister and even sir. I’ve even been known to bow my head to my closest friends. My son’s title, to me, will be Master until he is 18.

Make a point of displaying respect by taking a second to do something ‘for’ the other person, such as bowing, shaking hands or using a linguistic title.

Though, I also believe that a title or display of respect should be earnt by the respectee and bestowed, when felt appropriate, by the respector. I don’t think I could EVER call a ‘chav’ mister.

Maybe the problem with youths nowadays is the lack of feeling people, along with themselves, deserve any respect.

Respect and honour is earnt, not by going along with the crowd, but by showing honour, respect and decency to others, both in deed and language.

I do think that titles nowadays are used to denote influence and wealth more than anything real.

And to all those who said ‘Boring’… The words you choose to use show a lot about your character. lol

Also, anyone who is fussy about how they are respected (which title, last name, etc) should probably think themselves lucky that they feel they can choose… Be happy that someone has shown you respect and kindness, after all, they didn’t have to.

Without respect and understanding, we’d still be throwing poo at each other.

Keep it the way it is. Mr. is proper for addressing a man with authority over you by his name. Mr. is also proper to use when doing business with a man. Mrs. and Ms. are key to addressing a woman under these same circumstances. Mrs. is useful for a woman to prefer when she wants to make it clear that she is not available, especially in a social or business setting. Ms. still retains the same due respect, regardless of marriage.

Miss, Ms., and Ms. Suname are used to properly address a young woman who is unmarried. In the social setting, “Young Lady” and “Young Man” should be used to properly address young ones. Mrs. Surname or Ms. are proper for addressing a young married woman. Mr. Surname or “Young Man” is still appropriate for a young (~ age 17-22) married man. Miss is useful for young, single, honorable men to use to, in a proper manner, either flatter or initiate wooing in the social setting, depending on the context and tone; this is why Sir has no counterpart to miss, besides traditional gender roles. “Young Lady” may also be used for a relatively older person to properly address (when by name isn’t necessary) a young miss or Mrs. in a more casual social setting; this is especially useful for a Sir addressing a Miss to denote no perverted motives for initiating conversation. The man should always be respectful and honorable, which will keep young unmarried women from being unsettled when called Miss or Ms.; Ms. being less likely to unsettle the Miss. However, it can be quite romantic for a young unmarried man suitor to address the young unmarried lady as Miss; this shows regard and respect for her, honor, propriety, and said in an endearing tone, an interest to court. A young unmarried man can be addressed as Sir by the Miss for the same reason. However, I feel it is most proper to address relatively older men with Sir. Sir should be used to address a man who has authority as well, despite his relation to your age. In the proper social setting, a man or woman who is young but not a “Young Man” or “Young Lady” (i.e. he’s about 22) should be called Sir or Miss or Ms. Ma’am should be used under the same circumstances as Sir; Madam may be used too, but I personally think it is too formal for general usage. Sir, Ma’am, “Young Lady” or Miss or Ms. (without surname following), and “Young Man” should be used when addressing by name isn’t necessary given the present circumstances in the social or business setting. Young men should be addressed Mr. Surname by Sirs or Ma’ams who expect much from the young man (e.g. future parents-in-law, teachers, figures of authority). Women should be called ma’am or M(r)s. Surname in this cirucmstance. Depending on the age of the young man or young lady and the tone of voice used, “Young Man” or “Young Lady” may be an isult or a compliment. For instance, it may imply to a 17 or 18 year old that (s)he is finally approaching (wo)manhood with honor, and to a 23 year old, it may imply that more self-cultivation is sought from him/her, else they would be addressed Mr. Surname, Sir, M(r)s. Surname, Ms., or Miss.

It should be noted that whenever one is being served, they should be addressed by Mr. or M(r)s. Surname regardless of age.

Also, Ms. without the surname should be pronounced Misz (like Miss with a subtle but discernible z sound at the end); Ms. with the surname should be pronounced Mizz (with a more distinct and drawn-out z sound). This is to stress or denote the youth of the Ms. (surname not following) regardless of marital status. The Ms. (surname not following) is honored properly by this address while the older Ms. Surname is honored properly by Ma’am or Madam.

Additionally, in the social setting, mature women who are not yet elders yet not relatively older than the one addressing them may be called Madam when addressing by name isn’t necessary; the tone with which this title is spoken may also assume a romantic element when employed by Sirs seeking to court the mature Ms. Surname.

Outside of business (unless one feels it nobly necessary), dishonorable men and women should be addressed as Mr. or M(r)s. Surname and not Ma’am, Sir, etc.; Mr. or M(r)s. may be omitted and replaced by their first name when speaking of them and they are not present, though gossip is improper. Unwanted men or women suitors should also be addressed this way and not as Sir, Madam, or Miss. In romantic relations, one may graduate from the use of Sir, Madam, or Miss and instead call their partner by their first name to create a greater sense of intimacy and closeness; this should be done once steady/committed dating between enamored partners has duly begun. During casual dates between prospective partners, the first name should be used sparingly and with a frank tone when addressing is proper by a partner who is vocalizing his/her romantic disinterest; the man may and should more properly call the woman Ms. (surname not following) instead of Miss in this same frank tone as well. In a casual setting between more uncultivated youths of the current generation, you’ll find the disinterested young lady addressing her male suitor as “dude” or “man” or even “bro” in a casually frank tone. These serve to establish that the date is not a success romantically and that friendly disposition is more appropriate. Often, you’ll find the romantically disinterested partner who does not even seek friendly disposition and is rather regretful of the date not even addressing the other when proper, creating an uncomfortable silence.

Friends should call each other by their first names, or a preferred nickname. The following are highly informal and used by modern youth: “Bro” and “Sis” may be reserved as titles of approval for future/potential brothers-in-law or sisters-in-law; they are also, more often, used to address good friends, especially those who are either understanding or genially down-to-earth. “Man” and “dude” are general and casual ways to address a young man of the current generation, often but not exclusively one of a bro-like nature. Women tend to call each other by their first names, but will use the foregoing addresses for men.

I think one could argue that by limiting our options to only Mr. and Ms., we refuse to address real social and perceptual differences which affect our way of interacting with one another. If we ignore these real differences and homogenize all titles to Mr. and Ms., then by what standard can we truly maintain real gender difference? Why not homogenize Mr. and Ms. to, say, the Japanese’s gender neutral suffix -san at the end of a name?

I think our current system of propriety, which is unfortunately going by the wayside, is a more rich, personal, and expressive system of social interaction. It is a collection of mores that we should cherish and which we should reflect on its inherent psychological truths. I’d rather have color, animation, romance, expression, and personality behind my social encounters than just neutral, vapid uniformity.

@Naomi
The phrase “bitter young feminists” would have once been considered an appropriate way to refer to the people who insisted that you are not property. The patriarchal structure in our society is such that it is ingrained even in things so simple as abbreviations. I am not saying that everyone who continues to address people as “Mr.” are evil, only that these terms show us that there are traces of the subjugation of women that was present in that time period (and still is present in many parts of the world).

whoa B)

People commenting on this site are so stupid and arrogant.

Das a good wan, Das!

I see what you did there, did you see what I did there?

I put my name as it was written on birthday cards addressed to me by great aunts and grandmothers. I think even my mother did that then. It was told to me that it meant an Unmarried Man, so that was the equivalent of Miss, back in the mid 1900’s being born in 1961, I can attest to that, and my family was of old English and Irish decent. On both sides I have lineage back to the 1650’s on Shelter Island NY and Long Island’s Orient Point. They were Swordfish hunters. Not fishermen, mind you. I have headstone prints/etchings that say Here lay Sylvester a fine swordfish hunter. Kind of off the topic but I was told by Claudio of the famous Claudio’s Rest. of Greenport NY (LI not the crappy upstate town with the same name) that the reason they were called hunters was because they used harpoons, with record size Swordfish. If you never had it, you’re missing out on the most delicious fish ever. It was the only fish I’d eat as a kid, besides tuna salad, cause I was told it was steak first. Which was also true. You call it a swordfish steak, and cook it on a fire grill. If your landlocked, as I am currently in upstate NY (Hudson River doesn’t count, as the only saltwater fish to come up the Hudson is Striped Bass, and they suck-plus the Hudson is polluted. I think I’ll transfer this to the word “swordfish hunter”. As I’m completely off topic and on a new Adult ADD-Pi medicine that has worn off apparently.

i dont understand anything that the reading is telling me

i knew it!

I really dont get it!!!

Anyone who is offended by or wouldn’t do business with someone who doesn’t address them properly is a mistress. I don’t want your inflated narcissistic ego near me anyways. See ya.

Thank-you so much for sharing the background on the terms Mister and Missus. I found this very interesting and informative. Actually I am in agreement with Naomi and feel these are courtesies and signs of respect and just plain good manners. There is absolutely nothing wrong with either good manners, respect of others or general courtesies extended be they in writing or face-to-face. Actually the term honorifics is one I had forgotten and it does sound stuffy, however, titles such as these as well as others are exactly that, honorifics. One writer expressed confusion when seeing an honorific title of Doctor and I feel he is right. Individuals with a PhD. use the term Doctor denoting a level of education in specialty. Others are given the title as an Honorary Doctor, in which the title Dr should not be used when addressing that person. Then there is a Medical Doctor denoting a Doctor of Medicine. When I see the use of Dr. J Bob, MD, I presume that person has a PhD as well as being a Medical Doctor. It can be confusing , however, as a person matures and their stature in the community changes, these extended courtesies become more important and are certainly a sign of being brought up properly or a sign of good self-teaching.

As an addendum to my comment, no invitation, no letter or card of sympathy, no notice in writing of congratulations, nothing written should ever be addressed without the use of Mr. , Mrs. or Ms. When I mail anything to a child under 11 yrs old, I still use the term Master J Bob and Missus J. Bob. It is not only correct , it allows the child to have their own “title” as it were.

I agree that we should keep them, as a way to show respect to others. We should definitely show respect not only to our elders, but also to everyone we meet. Everyone deserves that much! It truly saddens me to see how respect and manners seem to be disappearing. If there is anyway to show any respect or manners in this world, then I say keep it. It certainly does no harm to keep things the way they are, as we all know, not everyone will use them anyway.

Also, before my son recently turned 20, the mail he received from certain places, even a government agency, was addressed “Master”. That also happened to my older children many years ago, I’ve always thought of that as being normal.

Also, what I took Naomi’s statement to mean must be different from the way that most of you understood it . I took it to mean that she realizes that there are many young feminists in this world and that she hoped that it wouldn’t cause some of them to become “bitter” over the fact that “Mr” had been derived from the word “Master”. I do not know Naomi personally, so maybe I misunderstood her intentions when she posted her comment … I certainly hope not; otherwise, the rest of you would be correct in your assumptions and Naomi’s post could be considered offensive, especially towards the young feminists in this world. Personally, I find some people tend to take things too far as that last part of Naomi’s post was actually unnecessary, she had already made her point. I’m not saying this is what Naomi did, but some people post things like this so that they can get noticed and therefore, become the topic of conversation. Some adults act like little children seeking their parents’ attention … even negative attention is better than no attention at all.

In Portuguese we have for the word Mister/Senhor. God means Senhor/Father. It means Mister had all power about who calling Mister/Senhor, like it means Lord.

I want to preface my comment that I love traditions and old language that actually is premised on respect.

However, the very clear reason that there are different forms of address for married women and unmarried women is that they used to have different legal status. This wasn’t that long ago, and women (called “suffragists” before and “feminists” now) had to fight desperately to attain the most basic of rights afforded to men: the right to own property, control money, vote, enter into contracts. And of course, dear to my own heart, practice a profession, such as medicine or law.

Any rights that a woman had prior to marriage (if not owned by her father or brother) were transferred to her husband, so the change from Ms to Mrs would inform everyone of her status, and who controlled her, literally.

In 1873 the first woman to graduate from law school in D.C., Belva Lockwood, was denied a degree. She only obtained one after petitioning the President, Ulysses Grant. When she tried to argue before the courts in DC, she was told by some judges that her husband needed to control her better, and the she had no standing before them, despite being a lawyer and member of the bar, because she didn’t even have the legal right to contract, being a married woman. Despite all of these obstacles, this feminist was able to successfully argue before the Supreme Court in 1880!

These rights that women had to fight for were the exact same ones already granted to freed slaves by the civil rights acts in the 1860’s.

So there was a very important reason for the different term, and “respect” is a thinly veiled excuse. “Protection” and “respect” are often used to deny rights to women, even to this day (look at the U.S.military) and are only condescending. Let’s look at what is done to woman who suffer abuse and disrespect in the most strict of religious communities: they are punished for allowing their fathers, brothers, or husbands to be disrespected because those men are the “holders of their honor.” How awful and incredible.

So please, keep all of this history in mind as well, and not just that found in the article, because it only shows a little of the linguistic history, and not all of the reasons behind it.

Finally, I personally do not mind being called by either title, because I know it is not generally intended to carry all of that weight of background. But I have been insulted, intentionally, by older men calling me “miss” when belittling me professionally (luckily only rarely!) and really think its well past the time when we have one honorific for men, and one for women. Or even better, one for all people despite their age, race, gender, marital status, etc.

(By the way, I love that we have all entered into this great discussion!)

@Katy (on June 7, 2011 at 6:40 pm)

Hey now, I’m 21 years old- born and raised in the South and lived here all my life: chivalry is NOT dead, it’s just hard to find. If a girl has an issue with me holding the door for them, then *maybe* they don’t deserve a good guy. Let me know how that “cool kid” or “bad boy” works out for you.

Just appreciate the fact that some guys still hold chivalric beliefs.
I know I will hold mine ’til the day I die.

Wierd how so many peolpe write things and you dont need to..

You should pay attention to other things!…

She frowned and called him Mister
Because for fun he kissed her.
And so in spite
That very night
This Mr. Kr. Sr.

Reading some of the comments, I’m happy to be Dutch.
Even if our ‘meneer’, ‘mevrouw’ (married) and ‘juffrouw’ (unmarried, also used for female teachers in our pre-adult educational system) come from a similar past, no one really cares.

Would you like to be addressed with ‘hey you!’, or Mr., Mrs., Ms.? Even if you take offense to the Mrs., consider the likelihood of the person addressing you knowing it’s history ^^.

In the end, let’s respect eachother enough to not assume that people are ok with being addressed informally every time/all the time and be happy that we live in the part of the world where we have the luxury of squabbling over something so trivial.

Um I dont get it! I didnt blush or laugh.I would blush if my crush noticed me or did something cute or laugh if I see something funny! This not close to not one of those!

david on June 8, 2011 at 1:09 pm
While I do agree that these titles are harmless, I’m not sure that Naomi’s sentiment is entirely accurate: I don’t know why one might think that titles are the last piece of common ground between generations, political parties, or cultures, but I’m fairly certain that’s not the case.
I think it behooves us to remember the classism, sexism, and racism that lie beneath words we use every day. I’m not sure tradition for tradition’s sake is particularly sane in an objective sense, but it’s certainly better to indulge the linguistic whims of tradition after becoming well-informed than it is to use them thoughtlessly.

——————————- Not a bad argument, but I’d say that the broadened use of Mr. and Mrs. has marked the uplifting of repressed classes and races. Blacks in the Jim Crow south were almost never called Mr. or Mrs.; servants and the poor of both races were in a similar boat. Over time, words once reserved for nobility were extended to the middle classes and finally to all members of society. While I agree that classism, sexism, and racism are problems, I believe the broadened use of honorifics over the decades and centuries has coincided with positive advancements toward class and race equality.

i don’t get why its funny…

As long as men are respectful and polite, does it matter what Mr. or Ms. once refered to?

Me either

I really don’t get what is funny about this.

Many of commonly used terms continue to place women in a secondary status in many cultures. In English language cultures, for example, many official documents and even our language traditions use “him” to mean both genders, obviously with the female gender suppressed.
More and more repulsive today is the use of the title “Mrs”. Vestiges of the day when wives were considered property are recalled when one considers the question, “Why should a women be identified as married (Mrs. Smith) when referenced, and her husband (Mr. Smith) is not.

I randomly feel like adding my anonymous comment.

My main problem with honorifics is that the females are based of their married status where males do not need such defining. To be Mrs is to be married, to be Miss is to be young and ‘eligible’ while being Ms means spinster (as I often hear) or ‘contrary feminist’ who wants to defy the norms (another common rason I have heard).

I will be a Ms for as long as I can or feel like it because as far as I am concerned, it is no ones business if I am married or single so I will take neutral and ‘contrary’ please.

Mr is covered by all males with no defining factor.

It also irritates me the old way of referring to a female as Mrs John Smith. I do not mind Mrs Smith but adding the husbands name really does imply ownership. I am a person in my own right, and I have my own first name, and it isn’t his.

Having said that, I do believe that they are important in official circumstances and also working in a multicultural area, sometimes a god send to identify unknown name origins to help subtly indicate a persons gender so you know your talking to the right person. Especially if you are only game to try pronouncing 1 name =)

As for blushing… I am in my 20’s and have known what a mistress was for a long time. Mistress is the nicest way I hear to them referred usually XD

I guess I am all set then.

Google “Meet Your Strawman” and see why you fill in Mr or Mrs or Ms

Miss Jean on April 24, 2012 at 9:19 am

“I am incensed when a telemarketer calls and addresses me by Jean. We haven’t met…give me a little respect, please. Some say they are told to do that because it denotes familiarity. I don’t want to be familiar with someone I haven’t met, thank you very much.” Amen! German and French (and even Spanish) have “Sie, vous and usted,” in addition to various titles: those very polite forms of “you” allow one to show respect and/or to hold someone at arm’s length. In the old days (before the total marxification of Western society), you would use those forms with people you just met, or with elders, or with people above you in rank. I myself (an American living in the US, but whose mother was born in Europe) still refuse to call my former American boss (with whom I became good friends) by his first name, even though I love him like an uncle or older brother—-even though he has told me to just call him *Bob.* I simply can’t. Something in me cringes at calling him anything other than “Mr. ___,” because I have huge respect for him; using his first name would in my eyes be debasing toward him, it would make him nothing more than a “comrade,” a “chum,” and he is so much more in my eyes than that.

M on June 11, 2012 at 11:29 am

“I am tired of being addressed as baby, sweetie or any other names that should be reserved for those that I have an intimate relationship with.” {thumbsup} Or how about “honey”? I’ve gotten that more than once from Mexican males working in restaurants. (But of course you can’t call them on it, because that would be “racism.” {rolling eyes}) Then there’re the young clerks in dept. stores, grocery stores, etc. who’ve been trained to call me “Miss,” rather than “Ma’am.” I’m 57, and though I’ve never married, I resent being called Miss (unless it’s kids who call me Miss + my first name, as a sign of affectionate respect). “Ma’am” is the contraction of “madame,” which an above commenter rightly pointed out means “my lady.” (The connotation of a brothel owner only came later.) I’ll take “Ma’am” any day over the ridiculous juvenilisation inherent in “Miss” when used on a woman over 30. As for “Ms.,” I’m not a manuscript.

DR JC on June 27, 2012 at 4:21 pm
“…we have become a casual, lose, disrespectful society. I have progressively watched a generation grow that is almost completely devoid of any moral standing, has little concept of authority, and lacks respect for others, particularly those who refuse to conform to their liberal ideas, and now are fighting to get rid of any ‘title’ of respect.” WORD!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
jane does on May 14, 2012 at 11:16 am
“it is time for people to live beyond male and female…it’s the 21st century, whether or not one is a male or female doesn’t matter, so why even acknowledge it?” UGH! I am not a bizarre neuter; my being female is part of the essence of who I am; it’s not simply some sort of patina or snippable skin tag or an infected appendix, to be extracted and tossed. Equality (in the sense of just treatment before the law) is one thing; sameness, on the other hand, is nothing more than a Bed of Procrustes.

Why do we have any titles at all? I hate when a form online won’t go through until I have checked “Mr., Mrs.,or Ms.”; that’s just not me!

I agree with Suki when she says “Why is it so important to know the marriage status of a woman, but it is only “Mr.” for men?”. Nowadays it’s not important to know your marital status, but it’s true that in certain situations you need to introduce people in a formal way. That’s why I prefer to use “Mr.” and “Miss”, it doesn´t matter if the woman is young or not. Only if she asks to be called “Mrs.” I do it. I think honorifics are important and must be used in order to take care of the language.

While I like the terms, if you use them all the time automaticly out of “respect” I feel it devalues them. They become empty gestures nothing more.

Anyone that gets upset for being called by their name and no Mr xyx or Ms yyy needs to get over themselves I feel. Its social convention, force of habit. That is all.

I’m still trying to figure out what Naomi meant by “run a muck”. Surely she meant “amok”.
I enjoy the articles and comments, especially if they’re well considered, or better yet, humorous, but I’m thrown by typos, grammar errors, and “made-up” phrases like that one. Too easily distracted, I suppose.

It does not take long for anyone to learn that everyone who “Misses,” “Mams,” and “Misters” another is not issuing respect. Some people do what they must do to get a job or get along with people.
There is not one thing wrong with these titles if people do not feel pressured to use them when they are belittles.

If you add a title to the names of the famous, stately, or rich; but you do not not think that it is appropriate to apply to the maid, ditch digger, or baggage boy, you have a problem. No one will require me to address them with a title of respect without returning it, yet, I know that neither person may respect each other by saying it. No one will rank me outright. You respect people because it is a decent thing to do for anyone, not because they require it. Those who require it are least respected. When it is earned, the address of respect is likely genuine.

I would address a king, President, queen, prince, princess, and the like with proper titles because it is quite appropriate. To say “Queen Safronia” is like saying a persons name; it is a definite identity and very specific. “Mrs. Wyman” is more general. I would address any female by a title, even young girls. Are they less than adults? No.

If there is no respect in the addresser’s heart, the title is not given in respect, but to identify.

Wow

this was a cool article

cool

Given your response, I don’t think you actually know what a feminist is, Naomi.

Nice, even though I knew!

I never new that and i am most of the time interested in facts such as this. However this did make me blush. Although this fact is no longer true because there are more singal ladies and men then there has ever been. Since i am in school i ask myself a lot of questions and this one never popped up till now.

Thank you for this Fact!!!!!!!1

Savannah the Student

I dont get it I am in Honors… well every thing since 6th grade and I didn’t understand the explanation could some one sort of sumb it down for me I am kind of confused

dumb it down sorry not sumb it down

thats so cool

so interesting

I used to work on a holiday campsite and the Manageress would insist on being called Mrs Jones, or Mrs J, and take offense at being called anything else, especially her first name. However she would only ever call the other employees by their first name, or avoid using it at all.

One day, she called me Rach.

That really upset me, because she wasn’t my friend, and only my friends shorten my name as a point of familiarity. I never broke the Mrs rule with her, and was very conscious of everything else including my Ps and Qs, but I expected to be treated with the same level of respect.

Using the address of Sir, Madam, Mr or Ms is quite commonplace, particularly in a professional environment. I hate getting cold calls who call you by name, or people who use it by reading your name badge. I personally consider that rude.

Look, this is what I gotta say. I now think that Mr. and Mrs. is over rated. The ONLY time you’ll ever catch me saying that anymore is when i’m talking to someone elderly, or me teacher.
peace out!!

I was always taught to respect anyone who’s an adult or authority figure by referring to them by their title first, and their name second. In my household its considered basic manners to do this to ’strangers’, new found acquaintances, as well as customer service representatives in retail/service occupations. The idea is that respect is never a right, it is earned. Showing respect through addressing others by their proper title is a way of showing respect for them, whether or not you receive it back.

This is why teacher ask that students call them ‘Mr.’, ‘Mrs.’, or ‘Ms.’ This usage of a title is an attempt to prepare students for society as well as the professional world. (I should also add that I was taught that the title of Mz. was reserved for women who decided that her martial status was no one’s concern.)

Mister /Mr …. is ‘authority loaded’ and Missus Mrs/Ms …is ‘Misuse/absuse hinted’..
Mister ought to have Madam as its counter part….

If Madam could mean My Dame …. It could been generally usedby young folks as mockingly meaning “my girl’…..’ just for not being ‘too formal ?

There won’t be any word that will please everyone…

At 58 years old I’m far from young and bitter yet I dislike the titles Mr. & Mrs because it is too formal, antiqueted and stuffy. Ish. Call me by my name.

I don’t get it.

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

I didn’t laugh or blush

awesome

It’s amusing to see how many people get up in arms simply by the HISTORY of the honorific, not even by the use in modern day society (Germaine Greer, is that you?). Miss, Mrs., Ms. … please, call me anything you want. Except Maybe.

Nice to see the majority agree that irrespective of hidden meanings and misinterpretations the general idea of the respect that goes with the titles are upheld and respected even in this day and time. I totally agree and follow it too. In fact, even when people insist that I can let it go and they are elderly, I hold on to it
ps: Joan. ha ha on your pun. and yes I agree with you totally!

Interesting article, up to the sentence, “By the early 17th century, Mr., Mrs. Ms. and Miss became part of English vernacular,…”

Every indication I ever recall is that “Ms” is a construct of mid-late 20th century women’s liberationists who wanted to avoid demeaning women by calling them either Mrs or Miss. Further, they constructed its pronuciation of “Miz” to avoid the aural suggestion of insult, *and* I thought it was specified that “Ms” not have a “.” since it was not really an abbreviation.

This was a major point of socio-grammatical discussion in the 60s/70 and even 80s, and I find it lame that this article did not address it, even in passing.
The cited Emily Post policy is certain well past this discussion, and a comparison of Emily Post ca 1950 and this would be noteworthy.

I think you should address people who are older that you as “Ms.”, “Mrs.”, or “Mr.”. However, I usually only do it to people older than 18 even though I am younger than 18. In other words, I’m not going to call a 16 year old “Ms.” (or Mrs., you never know! XD) even if they’re older than me. It’s a bit confusing….

i would call a young woman miss and an older woman ma’am. it is almost disrespectful of a woman’s position in life to call her Ms if she is older than maybe 28. I have never referred to my friends parents by mr. or mrs. so and so. It is so informal. i would just avoid having to call them by any name if possible. it is awkward for me because if i am around my friends parents it is usually an informal event. they are not in a position of authority over me so i will not call them mr or mrs. it is weird. i will avoid having to address them if possible and then i would use first name.

“Ms” was favored by mid-1900’s feminists because it was an honorific for a female that did not reference her relationship with a man–not, as is often stated, merely one to be used when one was unaware of a woman’s marital status, but one which accorded to any woman the equal respect given a man: the status of being regarded as an individual in one’s own right.
I think that titles in general have fallen into disuse is not so much a sign of the demise of courtesy and respect, but a recognition that originally titles were used as a way of emphasizing and perpetuating class distinctions; rather than having been devised as a way of according respect, they were used to “keep folks in their places”. The eschewing of titles is simply an encouraging sign of a more egalitarian society. I am a member of an anonymous self-help group, where in the interest of preserving anonymity only first names are used, and I have found in the meetings of this fellowship the most inspiring attitude of authentic respect I have ever encountered. The abandonment of so-called “honorifics” means that no individual is accorded higher status than another; as a result, each is treated with the dignity that is his or her birthright as a human being.
I do not necessarily advocate that all titles be abandoned, nor do I suggest that they are not often used as a genuine attempt to convey courtesy and respect. I merely suggest that one must listen with one’s inner ear to the spirit behind the title, and avoid making unwarranted assumptions based upon adherence–or lack thereof– to this particular social convention. How often was the slave’s “Massa” an expression of respect, and how often one of hatred and fear?

Sorry, people, but I’m going to throw the cat among the pigeons by saying that being a Lancastrian of Liverpool birth, we in the land of scouse tend to call women who we don’t know by the term ‘luv’ – As in: “Hello, luv.” How are you, luv.” and so on. This could be seen as too familiar to most people, but we are a familiar bunch in the Pool of Life – Liverpool.

this didnt make me laugh. or blush.

#stupidoldpplarticles

Let it be, it’s fine the way it is!

A few years ago I read that “Master” is now the appropriate termonology for addressing boys, just as “Miss” is for girls. “Mr” and “Ms” would be appropriate for adults. As for the “full stop” period after the abbreviation, I suspect most periods after abbreviations will become extinct within the next decade, due to texting and other electronic media.

Etymology is fascinating. However, language and culture are ever-changing. The origin of a word should not necessarily color it’s modern usuage. Mr(.), Miss, Mistress, Ms(.), Mrs(.), etc all signify respect. There is so little respect in our world today, we should graciously accept it whenever it is offered.

Every word with 2 letters in a row are so much cooler XD
- Mistress
- Shoppe
- Marionette (2 R’s or 1? O ^ O)
etc.

i completly agree with naomi on how “young feminist” is not a very proper or polite way of adressing a girl that is not of age yet . It is vey contredictial in many ways, and not at all rightess to young girls. Everyone deserves a proper heading, Not just men.

i don’t think its funny at all…

Emily Post is wrong.

“Ms.” is a neologism dating from about 1972.

Since there is no governing body for the English language (as L’Académie Française is for French), no one has the authority to change it — the language is greater than its speakers.

If a woman has an academic, military, or religious title, that should be used — otherwise, it’s “Miss” for an unmarried woman and “Mrs.” for a married one.

I grow up in a small community. The culture is : We respect all. For older people like ages of grandparents we call them grandma or grandpa , age group if my parents we call them auntie or uncle, anyone who are older me are called Manang or manong. It is a given. To this day is has never changed. It has never changed. It is still being practiced. I hope it will never change. Calling someone’s first name when someone is speaking to an older person
Is considered rude.The Catholic young children kisses the hand of older people. Some are still doing it. This is changing with the new generation. Some do hugs in place of the Mano, the kissing hands,that is showing respect to the older people as u arrive at someone house.
In a school setting the principal and administrators are called sir or ma’am. The parents call the teachers ma’am or sir in school or outside. It is a given. That’s always been the culture. It hasn’t changed. When I first taught n California , I’ve addressed my superiors sir or ma’am. I felt funny addressing their first names. Once in a while I called their first name. I am now retired . I.still call them Mr or Mrs once in a while when I run into them. It’s courtesy. I was brought up that way. Cres

the only interesting thing about this article is the title that’s it. the article is stupid i dont get get it!! soory for rude comment but true though!!

So, after all this, am I to suppose that it is still correct to refer to a mistress as such if she truly is “a kept woman of a married man?”

Dearest Homines Sapientes;

It has been interesting, to read all these opinions, as to the proper means to address one another. These titles should simply be used to differentiate between Ladies and Gentlemen, Lassies and Laddies period, with no ulterior motives.

Truly Yours,
Beto

I’m with Naomi. What’s the difference anyway? ‘Mrs’ just sounds more formal, I guess.

I have to take issue withe this article that from the C14th the term mistress only applied to a kept woman. It was certainly used to denote a woman who had authority at least in the first half of the twentieth century in much of the English speaking world. When households had servants the lady of the house was known as the mistress and the man as the master and well into the second half of the C20th teachers in some schools were described as masters or mistresses. They certainly were at schools I attended and later taught at. It only started to change when the gender of the person holding a position became to be no longer considered relevant so for example positions of senior master or mistress in charge changed to the generic head teacher in charge which was somewhere in the 1970-80s.

in Germany, ladies are always “frau” now, regardless of age or marital status. “fraulein” is no longer politically correct. i guess no woman there wants to be considered young/naive/innocent anymore.

but if we did that here, every woman would be “Mrs.” and that doesn’t seem right, really.

i’m happy with the way it is now.